P08 gauges: true or not ?

[fausto]

Hello! Here again. I would like to know your opinion about these P08 headspace and bore wear gauges. They spread out some years ago on eBay. They did cost a lot...But if original they would be a great find indeed. As you can see, they are all by Eckardt & Lohkamp, Berlin (code "gmm"). I got some sets, both for P08 and P38. The guy on eBay sold out also some splendid sets for K98 bore wear. Too nice to be true...But this wouldn't be bad. Bad is that I discovered that the guy had bought on eBay, months earlier, a professional pantograph and many 100 cm. bars of fine German steel, 8, 9 and 10mm diameter... Well: what do you think about? If fakes, they are masterpieces of fakery indeed. Or this stuff is true and original?
Fausto

[alanint]

Well, my observation would be that since a waffenamt would have been added after the fact as a means of acceptance for goverment use, it would out of necessity be a hand stamp. These waffenamts are engraved, not stamped, onto each piece.
I can't say anything definitive, since I have never handled guages of this type.

[Vlim]

There are so many of them getting onto the European market these days that I am also tempted to call them reproductions.

They are easy to make with the right equipment and panthographed 'stamps' are a definite no-no.

There was a surge of 'good/original' gauges hitting the market when a large supply of WW2 gunsmiths tool kits were discovered in a warehouse. Most of the sets were broken up and the individual gauges and tools sold seperately.

The DDR gauges are also starting to dry up over here, so expect the Eastern-European market to deliver a fair share of fakes the next years.

I'm pretty sure I also have some faked gauges and exercise rounds in my collection

[alanint]

Why also the marked difference in rim profile, if they are both supposed to represent a standard 9mm round?

[Vlim]

And why WaA the same part twice? It's only an acceptance stamp, not a 'let's stamp each side of this little gauge' affair.

And 'if' the WaA official was awake during his stamping rage he would have noticed that the calibre says gmm (GMM) rather than 9mm. Ouch.

[fausto]

Hello! Thanks for your comments. Yes, there are differences in the rim shape and also on the upper part of the gauges: some are flat, some hollow. I can't explain that: maybe these sets have been put together with gauges taken at random in some armourers box where there were pieces with some light differences in manufacture...Yes, if not for the different marks P08 or P38 they are identical: one no-go (G = Grosse = Large), one go (N=Normal). No, they are not double WaA marked: WH stands for Wehrmacht (Army). And btw on all Nazi gauges I have seen the WaffenAmt was engraved, not stamped. I have seen some of these headspace gauges, original (not in good condition:some rust and wear) and they were identical to those pictured above. And were a good source to reproduce them indeed. My problem is that mine look just too new and immaculate to be over 60 years old. Thanks for your help.
Fausto

[Vlim]

No, they are not double WaA marked: WH stands for Wehrmacht (Army)

I see a WaA42 marking on the side AND on the bottom. That is twice in my book

I also would expect 'G' to mean 'Gut' or 'Good' and 'N' to mean 'Nicht Gut', 'Not Good'.

(or in English Go/No Go).

[fausto]

Dearest Wlim,
the WaA42 you refer to is NOT on the bottom (no rim, you see?), but on the TOP of the gauge marked 8,88 (mm. we would suppose?...) which is a bore wear gauge and not a headspace gauge like other ones. And this gauge bears only this WaA on its top. And, yes, my German was not that good: G stands for Grosster (umlaut on "o"), and N stands for Normaler. Neither "Gut" nor "Nicht Gut". Sorry...
Put apart "your book" and get a look at page 115 of Bender's one: you will find there early DWM drawings dated May 19, 1920 with all the gauges we are speaking about (and more...) with correct captions...

[rolandtg]

I would think the fonts that are used on the gauges would be a big clue, perhaps the best clue to ascertain the authenticity.
Are the fonts the same as are seen on other authentic period gauges and tools?

To me the fonts look too modern.

[Vlim]

Fausto,

It would really help if YOU did your homework as well and would post a clear photo with a decent description in the first place.

In that case we wouldn't have to waste our time trying to figure out what you, so obviously to yourself, already know.

Have a nice life. I will ignore you now.

[Vlim]

ps: I trust you also have a very good explanation for the gmm rather than 9mm marking?

[fausto]

Vlim, I will not ignore you. I dont want to fight with anybody. I figure that here we should be all friends. Sorry for the misunderstanding. And sorry if I seemed aggressive...
In the very first line of the topic I specified "headspace and bore wear gauges". As for the "gmm" this is correct: it is the code assigned to Eckhardt & Lohkamp, Berlin. It is not an uncorrect stamp for 9mm. And, no, Vlim, I do not ask what I already know: I'm just asking your opinion about these gauges which are around since some years. And I will be very grateful to you all for your help.
Rolandtg: thanks. Yes, the fonts are a great clue. And these are identical to the original ones. What I fear is that some skilled guy used a professional pantograph and good steel bars to reproduce exactly these gauges. The story he told at the time of these eBay auctions was that I had met a man who had dismantled - in the 80s - the Eckhardt & Lohkamp building finding in the basement a couple of crates full of mint gauges of any kind, still dipped in grease. If this story is true, we are lucky guys. If not, we are fighting again with a case of finely done fakery...
Thanks to you all.
Fausto

[Vlim]

Fausto,

Ok, personally, I don't believe this Eckhardt & Lohkamp story but I will look into it more closely. I know that some dealers have been boosting / faking all sorts of tools and gauges, usually those that came from Norwegian and DDR facilities during the last 20 years.

It is quite easy to pantograph some extra text on a largely unmarked DDR gauge and transform it into a 'WW2 specimen'.

The 'Waffenamting' also took place on Norwegian large calibre ammunition, since Norway took over a lot of German weaponry they produced their own ammunition, modelled after the original German stuff. When this Norwegian surplus hit the market, the head stamps were removed with a turning lathe and new 'Old WW2' stamps were added, thus creating a 'rare WW2 vintage piece'.

The gmm ordnance code and the 9mm designation are too close to call it a coincidence, I'm not ready to accept this (yet). Apart from that, Waffenamt 42 is usually associated with companies like Polte in Magdeburg, and Klinge and Heinichen in Dresden.

[fausto]

Thanks Vlim!
Thanks a lot for all informations you so friendly provided. And, yes, me too I don't believe that Lockhardt & Lohkamp story... But just this morning Mauro told me that some time ago he looked personally in Oberndorf to a discovery of an old crate containing hundreds of mint Nazi gauges...So, who knows...Have a great day.
Fausto

[Vlim]

Yes, Oberndorf produced some nice surprises:

-The full set of Swiss acceptance gauges plus a number of spares.
-A set of K98 related gauges found under a pile of metal in the metal warehouse.
-A box full of WaA stamps in the sewers.

It is a nice, quiet, interesting, friendly and sometimes surprising little town

[mauro]

I like Oberndorf!