More ? - 1914 DWM

06-08-2001, 10:53 PM

First I would like to thank you gentlemen for talking me out of shooting this relic and our only luger. I really enjoyed the comment that went "would you chop wood with a relic sword just because you can". Also for the tip on the proper way to release the action without dry firing (I belive it was Marvin's suggestion) Thanks again.

Here's some more questions for you, since you are the guys to ask.

I was told that this pistol was arsenal refinished,but I don't know what that really means. The bluing very uniform (almost no wear) has a definite purple cast to it. Is this a tip as to where or when this was done or a hint as to where it has been?

The numbers on the external parts of the pistol that show all match. Can I find a list of all the parts which where originially numbered on military models of this era online so I can check the internal parts to see if the pistol is truely all matching as I was told? Doesn't really matter to me but I would like to find out so that someone in the family is not misinformed about it in the future.

Finally what is your opinion on mismatched handgrips? The one on the right side is thick and obviously newer while the one on the left side is very thin and finely checkered (I was told it was an original) Do you collectors display a luger with mismatched grips or do you put on a pair of matching replica grips for show? I know this is a dumb question but I had to get it out.

Big Norm · 06-09-2001, 12:23 AM

I do not know which type of 1914 DWM you have. Is it an artillery (chamber dated w/8 inch barrel) or a military (4 inch barrel)? The chamber dated 1914 artillery is quite rare and should be babied.

Repro grips can be spotted by a collector pretty easily. They are thicker, the outside pattern sides are flat and the pattern is wrong. The repros used the same pattern for both sides of the grips and altered the safety area for the safety notch. They also altered one side for the mag release button. All the repros did was use a pattern for one side and then turn it over for the grip on the other side to cut the wood. Real luger grips have different lengths. So the repros do not fit as well as the real stuff. Sometimes they have to be sanded to fit. Thats not good.

It is possible to buy unnumbered original grips but they will cost from $100 to $175. The same price goes for numbered grips. Some collectors do not care if the grips are numbered to the gun. But the real purest do. As in collecting coins or stamps there are different levels of collectors. The real thing is to take care of the metal and keep your eyes open for better grips, holsters and so forth. Real collecting is not just about buying the gun. Sometimes its the fun of buying the other goodies that come with the gun (like matching mags and the proper holster) and learning about the history of your gun.

I have been told by Jerry Peters the there are some new repros coming out of Germany that are closer to the real thing. I would wait the see the new grips to see what they look like. They will be cheaper and may be better designed.

Big Norm

BILL · 06-09-2001, 12:34 AM

Hi Basil, I think it would be easier to note all the parts that aren't identified by the last two numbers of the serial on an Imperial Luger. Just about any part that is big enough for the numbers is stamped. I have seen all original with unmarked firing pins and rear toggle pins and other WWI pistols where these were stamped. The guide pin to the firing pin was not stamped nor the front toggle pin. Ok, that is all I can think of that you can easily remove ( I am sure one of my brothers here will straighten me out, though). As for the mismatched grip..often a grip is damaged and either a repro pair or an unmarked original pair will be installed on the pistol. Oh, some original grips and grip screws are not marked either. Arsenal refinishing, in my opinion, would be hard to tell from the original (unless it had a specific inspection stamp that indicated it had been back in for some repair). If you choose to replace any parts it would be nice to inform whoever you leave it to so they know that there are replacement parts. I hope this helps.

BILL · 06-09-2001, 12:36 AM

Aaron · 06-09-2001, 01:13 AM

If the blue on your pistol has a purple cast, it is a reblue of very poor quality, the usual butchered junk job that is done by an ordinary hacker of a gunsmith. If I am correct, it also is highly polished, and if that is the case, take it out and shoot it all you want, as it is now just a common shooter with little value.

06-09-2001, 07:45 AM

Basil,

There are two books which I have that shows which parts are number for the Imperial Lugers. They are Walter's book, "Luger" and Gortz's book, "Die Pistole P.08" The later is only available in German only. This may be a good page from one of these books that could be scanned and put into the Technical section of the Forum too.

As to the purple cast on the pistol, it would almost take someone to look at the pistol to determine if it was a post war re-blue or an arsenal reblue. Aaron is correc that if it is a post war reblue it was not a good job. In the bluing process, the time, temperature, and concentration of the bluing salts is what gives the "purplish" hue to the metal. If these conditions are not correct, an off color blue job will be present. After Mauser began to use the salt bluing process, the cannon and sometimes the frame will have this purplish color. From my experience, I have never seen a rust blued pistol with this color and it if yours has this it would seen that it was reworked at some point. I have no idea if any arsenals reblued Lugers and used the salt process on the Imperial Lugers and issued them during the WWII period. Do others have any comments on rebluing during the WWII period?

Marvin

Johnny Peppers · 06-09-2001, 09:15 AM

If the axel pin and firing pin of a military DWM are not serial numbered it will always be suspect. It was a requirement that these parts be serial numbered when the pistol was manufactured. Replacement parts were not.

Johnny Peppers · 06-09-2001, 11:52 AM

My mistake on the axel pin. Trying to help the carpenter put a new rail on the deck and keeping up with what is going on here is hell.

Dok · 06-09-2001, 12:57 PM

Go to the Technical Information section on the sidebar menu. Select "Markings". On the next page you will see links for all the info about markings. At the bottom of that list you will see a link entitled "List of Pistol Markings". This is a comprehensive list of all the markings on a Luger, what they were and where they were located.

Dok (Webmaster)

Dok · 06-09-2001, 12:59 PM

Click on the list to enlarge it so that you can read it, or download it to your computer for printing.

Dok

Dok · 06-09-2001, 01:01 PM

didn't know where to put that axel pin!

BILL · 06-09-2001, 02:40 PM

Johnny Peppers · 06-09-2001, 03:22 PM

He is the brains and I am the grunt on this job.

06-08-2001, 10:53 PM	#1
Basil_O Guest Posts: n/a	More ? - 1914 DWM First I would like to thank you gentlemen for talking me out of shooting this relic and our only luger. I really enjoyed the comment that went "would you chop wood with a relic sword just because you can". Also for the tip on the proper way to release the action without dry firing (I belive it was Marvin's suggestion) Thanks again. Here's some more questions for you, since you are the guys to ask. I was told that this pistol was arsenal refinished,but I don't know what that really means. The bluing very uniform (almost no wear) has a definite purple cast to it. Is this a tip as to where or when this was done or a hint as to where it has been? The numbers on the external parts of the pistol that show all match. Can I find a list of all the parts which where originially numbered on military models of this era online so I can check the internal parts to see if the pistol is truely all matching as I was told? Doesn't really matter to me but I would like to find out so that someone in the family is not misinformed about it in the future. Finally what is your opinion on mismatched handgrips? The one on the right side is thick and obviously newer while the one on the left side is very thin and finely checkered (I was told it was an original) Do you collectors display a luger with mismatched grips or do you put on a pair of matching replica grips for show? I know this is a dumb question but I had to get it out.

06-09-2001, 12:23 AM	#2
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	Re: More ? - 1914 DWM I do not know which type of 1914 DWM you have. Is it an artillery (chamber dated w/8 inch barrel) or a military (4 inch barrel)? The chamber dated 1914 artillery is quite rare and should be babied. Repro grips can be spotted by a collector pretty easily. They are thicker, the outside pattern sides are flat and the pattern is wrong. The repros used the same pattern for both sides of the grips and altered the safety area for the safety notch. They also altered one side for the mag release button. All the repros did was use a pattern for one side and then turn it over for the grip on the other side to cut the wood. Real luger grips have different lengths. So the repros do not fit as well as the real stuff. Sometimes they have to be sanded to fit. Thats not good. It is possible to buy unnumbered original grips but they will cost from $100 to $175. The same price goes for numbered grips. Some collectors do not care if the grips are numbered to the gun. But the real purest do. As in collecting coins or stamps there are different levels of collectors. The real thing is to take care of the metal and keep your eyes open for better grips, holsters and so forth. Real collecting is not just about buying the gun. Sometimes its the fun of buying the other goodies that come with the gun (like matching mags and the proper holster) and learning about the history of your gun. I have been told by Jerry Peters the there are some new repros coming out of Germany that are closer to the real thing. I would wait the see the new grips to see what they look like. They will be cheaper and may be better designed. Big Norm

06-09-2001, 12:34 AM	#3
BILL User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Western Washington Posts: 826 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: More ? - 1914 DWM Hi Basil, I think it would be easier to note all the parts that aren't identified by the last two numbers of the serial on an Imperial Luger. Just about any part that is big enough for the numbers is stamped. I have seen all original with unmarked firing pins and rear toggle pins and other WWI pistols where these were stamped. The guide pin to the firing pin was not stamped nor the front toggle pin. Ok, that is all I can think of that you can easily remove ( I am sure one of my brothers here will straighten me out, though). As for the mismatched grip..often a grip is damaged and either a repro pair or an unmarked original pair will be installed on the pistol. Oh, some original grips and grip screws are not marked either. Arsenal refinishing, in my opinion, would be hard to tell from the original (unless it had a specific inspection stamp that indicated it had been back in for some repair). If you choose to replace any parts it would be nice to inform whoever you leave it to so they know that there are replacement parts. I hope this helps.

06-09-2001, 12:36 AM	#4
BILL User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Western Washington Posts: 826 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Ok, Norm, I am a slow typist.. (EOM)

06-09-2001, 01:13 AM	#5
Aaron Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Vista, CA Posts: 1,008 Thanks: 0 Thanked 9 Times in 9 Posts	Re: More ? - 1914 DWM If the blue on your pistol has a purple cast, it is a reblue of very poor quality, the usual butchered junk job that is done by an ordinary hacker of a gunsmith. If I am correct, it also is highly polished, and if that is the case, take it out and shoot it all you want, as it is now just a common shooter with little value.

06-09-2001, 07:45 AM	#6
Sherry Cook Guest Posts: n/a	Re: More ? - 1914 DWM Basil, There are two books which I have that shows which parts are number for the Imperial Lugers. They are Walter's book, "Luger" and Gortz's book, "Die Pistole P.08" The later is only available in German only. This may be a good page from one of these books that could be scanned and put into the Technical section of the Forum too. As to the purple cast on the pistol, it would almost take someone to look at the pistol to determine if it was a post war re-blue or an arsenal reblue. Aaron is correc that if it is a post war reblue it was not a good job. In the bluing process, the time, temperature, and concentration of the bluing salts is what gives the "purplish" hue to the metal. If these conditions are not correct, an off color blue job will be present. After Mauser began to use the salt bluing process, the cannon and sometimes the frame will have this purplish color. From my experience, I have never seen a rust blued pistol with this color and it if yours has this it would seen that it was reworked at some point. I have no idea if any arsenals reblued Lugers and used the salt process on the Imperial Lugers and issued them during the WWII period. Do others have any comments on rebluing during the WWII period? Marvin

06-09-2001, 09:15 AM	#7
Johnny Peppers User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Calion, Arkansas Posts: 1,042 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Re: More ? - 1914 DWM If the axel pin and firing pin of a military DWM are not serial numbered it will always be suspect. It was a requirement that these parts be serial numbered when the pistol was manufactured. Replacement parts were not.

06-09-2001, 11:52 AM	#8
Johnny Peppers User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Calion, Arkansas Posts: 1,042 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Re: More ? - 1914 DWM My mistake on the axel pin. Trying to help the carpenter put a new rail on the deck and keeping up with what is going on here is hell.

06-09-2001, 12:57 PM	#9
Dok RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Bermuda (Eat Your Heart Out) Posts: 1,626 Thanks: 0 Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts	Basil_O... here is the info you seek... Go to the Technical Information section on the sidebar menu. Select "Markings". On the next page you will see links for all the info about markings. At the bottom of that list you will see a link entitled "List of Pistol Markings". This is a comprehensive list of all the markings on a Luger, what they were and where they were located. Dok (Webmaster)

06-09-2001, 12:59 PM	#10
Dok RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Bermuda (Eat Your Heart Out) Posts: 1,626 Thanks: 0 Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts	I forgot to add... Click on the list to enlarge it so that you can read it, or download it to your computer for printing. Dok

06-09-2001, 01:01 PM	#11
Dok RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Bermuda (Eat Your Heart Out) Posts: 1,626 Thanks: 0 Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts	That's why the carpenter... didn't know where to put that axel pin!

06-09-2001, 02:40 PM	#12
BILL User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Western Washington Posts: 826 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Johnny, you are going to have to charge that carpenter extra!! (EOM)

06-09-2001, 03:22 PM	#13
Johnny Peppers User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Calion, Arkansas Posts: 1,042 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Re: Johnny, you are going to have to charge that carpenter extra!! He is the brains and I am the grunt on this job.