sub-sonic 9mm ammo

03-07-2001, 12:35 AM

A while back one of you gentlemen suggested that if I choose to shoot my 1914 DWM, I should use a sub-sonic round as this would be closer to the ammo the pistol was designed for. (I would put on a new set of grips in any event per your previous advice ) I have had conflicting advice about this. Several have told me to use the standard modern 9mm FMJ as this is required to work the toggle action properly. However one person who told me to use modern rounds broke a pin in his WW1 Erfurt shortly after. I would appreciate comments on this. Is subsonic 9mm ammo available as a factory round or is it a custom reload only? Or more importantly is the 1914 DWM something that should be really kept as an artifact only? The thing is I don't even hesitate to shoot modern ammo thru my 1930 Colt Police Positive 38 Special and the P08 seems (is) a much higher quality piece of work.

Basil's Bookmarks

Patrick · 03-07-2001, 05:18 AM

A lot has been written about the best ammunition for the Luger and the choice of ammunition is often responsible for malfunction and damage. After all, the Luger was the first semi-automatic pistol to be accepted by the armed forces of a number of countries - and that was just under a hundred years ago.

Luger developed the ubiquitous 9 mm Para cartridge specifically for his Luger Parabellum P 08 pistol but specifications have changed since then and the latest NATO 9 mm round is not identical to the original.

Powerful ammunition can damage a Luger: Kenyon (Lugers at Random) shows a proof testing model Luger with damage where the toggles have hit against the cam ramps. Broken toggles and frames are quite common, especially on early DWM Lugers. Extractors and ejectors have always been regarded as replacement parts.

For self loaders, the aim has always been to keep the charge down to the limit ensuring that the action recycles every time. This depends on the strength of the spring. New calibrated replacement Luger recoil springs (and both types of magazine springs) are available from Wolff (http://www.gunsprings.com). With a bit of practise, you can change them yourself and experiment with the type that works best for your Luger. Springs are not numbered parts and can be replaced without impairing a fully numbered gun.

If your Luger is fully numbered, you would be well advised to consider that broken parts that have to be replaced will greatly diminish its value. You can either use unnumbered replacement parts from the outset or keep an unnumbered Luger for shooting purposes.

I hope this helps -Patrick

Artsi · 03-07-2001, 10:44 AM

I personally regard any authentic pistol from 1914 to be appreciated what it is - an almost priceless artifact. That pistol must have endured and survived all kinds of hazards. Be buried 1 or 2 feet under on a battle field or sunk in a sea. Your piece has survived to date all hazards out there. It would be sad to see parts getting broken for unfortunate ammo choice.

I would recommend purchasing another P08 that does not hold any special collectible value. At part failure you just simply snap on a replacement and keep on shooting.

If you really really wanna try out your artifact, I suggest selfloaded ammo is the only way to go.

If you are an occasional shooter and thus investing time and money on reloading equipment is not your cup of tea, try talking to someone who has a progressive reloading press. Those presses easily can make 400 to 600 rounds in an hour. After finding out what powder charge is good for your pistol he can pump out 1000 rounds well within 3 hours. Occasional shooter should get by with 1000 rounds a long time.

Finding out load level.

Make a run of say 10 to 15 rounds of maybe like 10 different load levels. Start from a really lame load level. Most lamest loads will not function, they may not even toss out a spent case.

This way you can step by step safely approach the load level that makes your old pistol to function toggle action reliably.

Very roughly one can see what is the toggle action velocity by looking at spent case flying. If it gets ejected pretty ferociously and flies far away - loads propably are a bit too hot.

A batch of ammo for recreational plinking that I've loaded are just strong enough to work the toggle reliably. I only need to drop powder charge very little and I get occasional jams. This ammo that reliably works the toggle action, throws spent cases gently over the shooter.

I have a feeling my P08 has a healthy and long life in the field of recreational shooting front of it.

- Artsi

John Sabato · 03-07-2001, 12:59 PM

like any other engineering is done to meet a specification. The Luger pistol was designed to withstand much punishment in the type of ammunition it uses. It was however, made with materials and processes that have long since been improved. Improvements in ammunition have also been made since the last original Luger came off the assembly line.

If an original Luger is to be fired, the ammunition used should be selected to meet the specifications for which the pistol was designed. It should be shot with ammunition that is "tuned" to the particular pistol and its mainspring. Too much pressure means you are abusing your precious Luger and you will pay the price in loss of collector value when parts break and possible injury. Too little pressure means your Luger will not perform reliably. Just like the proverbial porridge, your ammunition must be "just right"

The use of ultra high velocity ammunition is not recommended except perhaps in the new Stainless steel Lugers that are currently being produced.

If you locate sub-sonic ammunition, (carried by many of the surplus ammo dealers for use in suppressed or silenced weapons), it may not function in your Luger unless you get yourself a spare recoil spring and start cutting off coils one at a time until it does. If you do that, make sure you ONLY fire subsonic ammo in that weapon because the punishment that will be dealt out to your toggle and ramps by standard velocity ammo is very likely and virtually impossible to fix short of replacing parts.

Even an antique weapon, as most Lugers are, will last your lifetime if used under the conditions and to the specifications for which it was designed.

Got a collectors item? or one that has sentimental value? Enjoy holding and looking at it. And shoot it occasionally and carefully (if you must)with the right loads.

Question: If you had a sword with historical or great sentimental value, would you use it to chop wood just because you knew it could?

Got a shooter? Happy shooting! If it breaks, fix it and go shooting again!

just my $0.02

-John

03-07-2001, 05:29 PM

Again thanks for your comments. I will print them and store the papers with the pistol. (I did this for your comments about a year ago as this is my son's pistol from his uncle) I'm glad I asked for your opinions, before I did something ill advised like going down to Fleet Farm and picking up a box of 9mm FMJ's. Thanks.

03-07-2001, 12:35 AM	#1
Basil_O Guest Posts: n/a	sub-sonic 9mm ammo A while back one of you gentlemen suggested that if I choose to shoot my 1914 DWM, I should use a sub-sonic round as this would be closer to the ammo the pistol was designed for. (I would put on a new set of grips in any event per your previous advice ) I have had conflicting advice about this. Several have told me to use the standard modern 9mm FMJ as this is required to work the toggle action properly. However one person who told me to use modern rounds broke a pin in his WW1 Erfurt shortly after. I would appreciate comments on this. Is subsonic 9mm ammo available as a factory round or is it a custom reload only? Or more importantly is the 1914 DWM something that should be really kept as an artifact only? The thing is I don't even hesitate to shoot modern ammo thru my 1930 Colt Police Positive 38 Special and the P08 seems (is) a much higher quality piece of work. Basil's Bookmarks

03-07-2001, 05:18 AM	#2
Patrick User Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 241 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Re: sub-sonic 9mm ammo A lot has been written about the best ammunition for the Luger and the choice of ammunition is often responsible for malfunction and damage. After all, the Luger was the first semi-automatic pistol to be accepted by the armed forces of a number of countries - and that was just under a hundred years ago. Luger developed the ubiquitous 9 mm Para cartridge specifically for his Luger Parabellum P 08 pistol but specifications have changed since then and the latest NATO 9 mm round is not identical to the original. Powerful ammunition can damage a Luger: Kenyon (Lugers at Random) shows a proof testing model Luger with damage where the toggles have hit against the cam ramps. Broken toggles and frames are quite common, especially on early DWM Lugers. Extractors and ejectors have always been regarded as replacement parts. For self loaders, the aim has always been to keep the charge down to the limit ensuring that the action recycles every time. This depends on the strength of the spring. New calibrated replacement Luger recoil springs (and both types of magazine springs) are available from Wolff (http://www.gunsprings.com). With a bit of practise, you can change them yourself and experiment with the type that works best for your Luger. Springs are not numbered parts and can be replaced without impairing a fully numbered gun. If your Luger is fully numbered, you would be well advised to consider that broken parts that have to be replaced will greatly diminish its value. You can either use unnumbered replacement parts from the outset or keep an unnumbered Luger for shooting purposes. I hope this helps -Patrick

03-07-2001, 10:44 AM	#3
Artsi User Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Finland Posts: 61 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: sub-sonic 9mm ammo I personally regard any authentic pistol from 1914 to be appreciated what it is - an almost priceless artifact. That pistol must have endured and survived all kinds of hazards. Be buried 1 or 2 feet under on a battle field or sunk in a sea. Your piece has survived to date all hazards out there. It would be sad to see parts getting broken for unfortunate ammo choice. I would recommend purchasing another P08 that does not hold any special collectible value. At part failure you just simply snap on a replacement and keep on shooting. If you really really wanna try out your artifact, I suggest selfloaded ammo is the only way to go. If you are an occasional shooter and thus investing time and money on reloading equipment is not your cup of tea, try talking to someone who has a progressive reloading press. Those presses easily can make 400 to 600 rounds in an hour. After finding out what powder charge is good for your pistol he can pump out 1000 rounds well within 3 hours. Occasional shooter should get by with 1000 rounds a long time. Finding out load level. Make a run of say 10 to 15 rounds of maybe like 10 different load levels. Start from a really lame load level. Most lamest loads will not function, they may not even toss out a spent case. This way you can step by step safely approach the load level that makes your old pistol to function toggle action reliably. Very roughly one can see what is the toggle action velocity by looking at spent case flying. If it gets ejected pretty ferociously and flies far away - loads propably are a bit too hot. A batch of ammo for recreational plinking that I've loaded are just strong enough to work the toggle reliably. I only need to drop powder charge very little and I get occasional jams. This ammo that reliably works the toggle action, throws spent cases gently over the shooter. I have a feeling my P08 has a healthy and long life in the field of recreational shooting front of it. - Artsi

03-07-2001, 12:59 PM	#4
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	Firearm engineering like any other engineering is done to meet a specification. The Luger pistol was designed to withstand much punishment in the type of ammunition it uses. It was however, made with materials and processes that have long since been improved. Improvements in ammunition have also been made since the last original Luger came off the assembly line. If an original Luger is to be fired, the ammunition used should be selected to meet the specifications for which the pistol was designed. It should be shot with ammunition that is "tuned" to the particular pistol and its mainspring. Too much pressure means you are abusing your precious Luger and you will pay the price in loss of collector value when parts break and possible injury. Too little pressure means your Luger will not perform reliably. Just like the proverbial porridge, your ammunition must be "just right" The use of ultra high velocity ammunition is not recommended except perhaps in the new Stainless steel Lugers that are currently being produced. If you locate sub-sonic ammunition, (carried by many of the surplus ammo dealers for use in suppressed or silenced weapons), it may not function in your Luger unless you get yourself a spare recoil spring and start cutting off coils one at a time until it does. If you do that, make sure you ONLY fire subsonic ammo in that weapon because the punishment that will be dealt out to your toggle and ramps by standard velocity ammo is very likely and virtually impossible to fix short of replacing parts. Even an antique weapon, as most Lugers are, will last your lifetime if used under the conditions and to the specifications for which it was designed. Got a collectors item? or one that has sentimental value? Enjoy holding and looking at it. And shoot it occasionally and carefully (if you must)with the right loads. Question: If you had a sword with historical or great sentimental value, would you use it to chop wood just because you knew it could? Got a shooter? Happy shooting! If it breaks, fix it and go shooting again! just my $0.02 -John

03-07-2001, 05:29 PM	#5
Basil_O Guest Posts: n/a	Thanks for your comments Again thanks for your comments. I will print them and store the papers with the pistol. (I did this for your comments about a year ago as this is my son's pistol from his uncle) I'm glad I asked for your opinions, before I did something ill advised like going down to Fleet Farm and picking up a box of 9mm FMJ's. Thanks.