Unnumbered Luger?

g5m · 04-08-2018, 02:00 PM

Have any DWM proofed but totally unnumbered Lugers been reported?

HerrKaiser · 04-08-2018, 02:15 PM

Yes, those are called “sneak” or “lunchbox special” Lugers often assembled and taken home from the factory by workers. They are highly sought after collectors pieces. If you have one, please post pictures.

rhuff · 04-08-2018, 04:00 PM

Just be real sure that the numbers have not been scrubbed/removed. That has happened with stolen handguns so as not to be traceable....just a thought.

g5m · 04-08-2018, 04:15 PM

Yes. From the photos it appears unlikely but I want nothing to do with a problem. Will inspect on arrival, assuming all goes as it should.

DonVoigt · 04-08-2018, 11:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HerrKaiser

Yes, those are called “sneak” or “lunchbox special” Lugers often assembled and taken home from the factory by workers. They are highly sought after collectors pieces. If you have one, please post pictures.

You have references to back this statement up?

There is no way a DWM luger has inspection and final proofs and "no number". Numbers were applied before and during inspection , but certainly before final proof.

Without good pictures of the markings or in this case the area where they should be, it is not possible to say what the OP has.

I also take exception to the "often...taken home" part of your statement; it may have happened- but rarely.

HerrKaiser · 04-08-2018, 11:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DonVoigt

You have references to back this statement up?

There is no way a DWM luger has inspection and final proofs and "no number". Numbers were applied before and during inspection , but certainly before final proof.

Without good pictures of the markings or in this case the area where they should be, it is not possible to say what the OP has.

I also take exception to the "often...taken home" part of your statement; it may have happened- but rarely.

I read about them in that standard catalog of Luger 2016 Edition. By often taken home I meant that that is how they most often came to come around, poor word choice on my part. They are rare pieces if legitimate. Tomorrow I can flip through the book again and try to find the actual page references to them.

Dwight Gruber · 04-08-2018, 11:56 PM

"Standard Catalog of Lugers" is a fountain of misinformation. Search through the Forum posts for recommendations of much better reading material.

--Dwight

HerrKaiser · 04-09-2018, 12:23 AM

Hard to believe that in my access to the entirety of the state of Ohio's public library catalogs (available through my school library credentials) I cant even find a copy of any of Jan Stills', or Harry Jones' books whatsoever for reading.

Edward Tinker · 04-09-2018, 01:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HerrKaiser

Hard to believe that in my access to the entirety of the state of Ohio's public library catalogs (available through my school library credentials) I cant even find a copy of any of Jan Stills', or Harry Jones' books whatsoever for reading.

they are specialty books and not at any libraries I have frequented

Aaron, for some reason was able to get a huge amount of his books published
-----------
I had a DWM that had no markings at all - was a serial number stamped on the very rear, likely from someone who felt it should have a serial number, but who knows. Should have kept that one....

Major Tom · 04-09-2018, 09:15 AM

Would it be illegal to possess such a gun?

Edward Tinker · 04-09-2018, 10:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Major Tom

Would it be illegal to possess such a gun?

No

changing numbers or taking them off of a newer gun is illegal - prior to 1968 there were many guns that did not have a serial number

An FFL just puts >>>>

NSN

.....in the spot for serial number

mrerick · 04-09-2018, 10:52 AM

Since all factory shipped Lugers had serial numbers, this is why it's important to verify the metal dimensions in areas that would normally have serial number digits on a "sneak" to be sure that they have not been removed.

In particular, check the width of the front of the receiver slide and verify that the slide is not proud (forward of) the front of the frame - and that the front of the receiver is level where the barrel is screwed in.

DonVoigt · 04-09-2018, 10:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edward Tinker

No

changing numbers or taking them off of a newer gun is illegal - prior to 1968 there were many guns that did not have a serial number

An FFL just puts >>>>

NSN

.....in the spot for serial number

Ed,
are you sure about that?
I believe it is the "removal" that is illegal, and subsequent possession of a weapon with removed or obliterated serial number is illegal. Many states have similar statutes, in NC a removed number is illegal.

If a piece never had a serial number in the first place- it is not an issue.

Edward Tinker · 04-09-2018, 11:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DonVoigt

Ed,
are you sure about that?
I believe it is the "removal" that is illegal, and subsequent possession of a weapon with removed or obliterated serial number is illegal. Many states have similar statutes, in NC a removed number is illegal.

If a piece never had a serial number in the first place- it is not an issue.

What?

that is what I said?

changing or removal is illegal?

tell me what you think I wrote??

Lugerdoc · 04-09-2018, 01:53 PM

I've seen several WW2 era completely unserialized PO8s made up of code 42, s/42 or unmarked parts from armour's spare parts repair kits at the end of the war. I suspose that the same may be true for some WW1 spare parts guns, but have never seen one. TH

DonVoigt · 04-09-2018, 03:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edward Tinker

What?

that is what I said?

changing or removal is illegal?

tell me what you think I wrote??

"Originally Posted by Major Tom View Post
Would it be illegal to possess such a gun?"

You answered:

"No"

Edward Tinker · 04-10-2018, 11:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DonVoigt

"Originally Posted by Major Tom View Post
Would it be illegal to possess such a gun?"

You answered:

"No"

If it is original, non-numbered

completely legal

BATF states that early guns with no serial number is marked as NSF when sold

DonVoigt · 04-10-2018, 03:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edward Tinker

If it is original, non-numbered

completely legal

BATF states that early guns with no serial number is marked as NSF when sold

I agree, but the "key" is that it NEVER had a number.

I believe in this case it is much more likely that the original frame serial number was removed.

But it is of little consequence as it will likely never be an issue, unless the owner is unlucky, or involved in something else that brings the lack of number to the attention of the authorities.

g5m · 04-10-2018, 09:17 PM

It sort of sounds like such a thing is unlikely. I'll plan to not proceed.

You folks are the experts and I haven't really been around Lugers for the last 50+ years when I had a DWM commercial and a WW11 bring back. Those are all gone now.

DonVoigt · 04-10-2018, 11:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by g5m

It sort of sounds like such a thing is unlikely. I'll plan to not proceed.

You folks are the experts and I haven't really been around Lugers for the last 50+ years when I had a DWM commercial and a WW11 bring back. Those are all gone now.

They are not "gone", just more expensive!

The vast majority of lugers in the US are vet bring backs from WWI or II, JMHO.

04-08-2018, 02:00 PM	#1
g5m User Join Date: Apr 2018 Location: desert Posts: 36 Thanks: 23 Thanked 5 Times in 5 Posts	Unnumbered Luger? Have any DWM proofed but totally unnumbered Lugers been reported?

04-08-2018, 02:15 PM	#2
HerrKaiser User Join Date: Feb 2018 Location: South Carolina Posts: 848 Thanks: 784 Thanked 861 Times in 411 Posts	Yes, those are called “sneak” or “lunchbox special” Lugers often assembled and taken home from the factory by workers. They are highly sought after collectors pieces. If you have one, please post pictures. __________________ -QM Looking for Mauser S/42 toggle train #22

04-08-2018, 04:00 PM	#3
rhuff Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Az. Posts: 2,291 Thanks: 2,709 Thanked 972 Times in 717 Posts	Just be real sure that the numbers have not been scrubbed/removed. That has happened with stolen handguns so as not to be traceable....just a thought. __________________ Need DWM breechblock #21

04-08-2018, 04:15 PM	#4
g5m User Join Date: Apr 2018 Location: desert Posts: 36 Thanks: 23 Thanked 5 Times in 5 Posts	Yes. From the photos it appears unlikely but I want nothing to do with a problem. Will inspect on arrival, assuming all goes as it should. Last edited by g5m; 04-08-2018 at 04:23 PM. Reason: more.

04-09-2018, 12:23 AM	#8
HerrKaiser User Join Date: Feb 2018 Location: South Carolina Posts: 848 Thanks: 784 Thanked 861 Times in 411 Posts	Hard to believe that in my access to the entirety of the state of Ohio's public library catalogs (available through my school library credentials) I cant even find a copy of any of Jan Stills', or Harry Jones' books whatsoever for reading. __________________ -QM Looking for Mauser S/42 toggle train #22

04-08-2018, 11:56 PM	#7
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,902 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,317 Times in 431 Posts	"Standard Catalog of Lugers" is a fountain of misinformation. Search through the Forum posts for recommendations of much better reading material. --Dwight

04-09-2018, 09:15 AM	#10
Major Tom User Join Date: Jan 2017 Location: S.E. Iowa Posts: 484 Thanks: 533 Thanked 227 Times in 124 Posts	Would it be illegal to possess such a gun? __________________ I Build Custom Pistol Boxes

04-09-2018, 10:52 AM	#12
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,909 Thanks: 1,374 Thanked 3,110 Times in 1,510 Posts	Since all factory shipped Lugers had serial numbers, this is why it's important to verify the metal dimensions in areas that would normally have serial number digits on a "sneak" to be sure that they have not been removed. In particular, check the width of the front of the receiver slide and verify that the slide is not proud (forward of) the front of the frame - and that the front of the receiver is level where the barrel is screwed in. __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.

04-09-2018, 01:53 PM	#15
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 736 Times in 483 Posts	I've seen several WW2 era completely unserialized PO8s made up of code 42, s/42 or unmarked parts from armour's spare parts repair kits at the end of the war. I suspose that the same may be true for some WW1 spare parts guns, but have never seen one. TH __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 lugerdoc@charter.net

04-10-2018, 09:17 PM	#19
g5m User Join Date: Apr 2018 Location: desert Posts: 36 Thanks: 23 Thanked 5 Times in 5 Posts	It sort of sounds like such a thing is unlikely. I'll plan to not proceed. You folks are the experts and I haven't really been around Lugers for the last 50+ years when I had a DWM commercial and a WW11 bring back. Those are all gone now.