Help to ID NSDAP markings on Luger

kro · 04-21-2013, 08:58 PM

New to forum and would like help from the experts on the significance of the markings on the front strap of this Luger. It does not belong to me. A friend of mine asked for help and I don't know much about Lugers he let me take pictures to post on this site. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

lugerholsterrepair · 04-21-2013, 09:35 PM

Somebody been monkeying around...This marking is as fake as John Kerry's Silver Star.

kro · 04-21-2013, 11:40 PM

Thanks for the info. I will pass on your observations.

lugerholsterrepair · 04-22-2013, 12:12 AM

Ken, Have your Friend remove the grips and see if they perchance match this pistol. They are a terrible fit. Not right at all IMO. They should taper down flush to the edge of the gripstrap.

kro · 04-22-2013, 12:36 AM

OK I'll call and ask him to check. I'm assuming they should have the last two numbers of the serial number?

lugerholsterrepair · 04-22-2013, 12:44 AM

Ken, Yes..the last 2 and perhaps an Eagle 63 or a WaA of some sort of acceptance mark.

alanint · 04-22-2013, 11:42 AM

Ruined a nice wartime Mauser

kro · 04-22-2013, 08:39 PM

We removed the grips and they are marked with the last two digits of the serial number which is 21. There are no other markings.

DavidJayUden · 04-22-2013, 09:48 PM

So what does it translate to?
dju

kro · 04-22-2013, 11:30 PM

I have no idea. It was bought I believe at gun show in the late 70's early 80's. He thought there was some paper work with it and he is looking for it.

DavidJayUden · 04-22-2013, 11:52 PM

Something like: The NAZI SA Group North Sea

alanint · 04-23-2013, 11:17 AM

Yes, from the Elite shipboard SA Commandos!

Ron Smith · 04-25-2013, 10:27 AM

Hi Ken,

There indeed was an "SA der NSDAP Gruppe Nordsee". An SA training school. Here are some original documents from an SA Troopers personnel files.

IMO, your friend has a very, very, rare and desirable unit marked, or more correctly, "Property marked" Luger. The markings are Pantographed rather than stamped, which would be correct for the era.

A quote from the description of the documents:

"Rotenführer according to a file page from the NSDAP, Gruppe Nordsee. A report from the SA group school Nordsee in a paper entitled “Beurteilung” has many good things to say about trooper Harms and it is signed by the Obersturmbannführer v. Engelin with the official stamp with eagle and swastika of the Nordsee Gruppe."

Ron

singleshotman · 04-25-2013, 10:43 AM

i did not know there was a school on how to beat up people, i always assumed it was on the job training.

alanint · 04-25-2013, 03:21 PM

I would dearly like to see another example before I bought that story. Can anybody point to another example?

lugerholsterrepair · 04-25-2013, 03:30 PM

Doug..Hang on for a day or two and I am sure I can get one...

Ron may be correct. I guess anything is possible but IF it's a one of... it might be hard to prove it's legitimate. I guess at this point the jury is still out. I was interested to see that there actually IS/was an "SA der NSDAP Gruppe Nordsee".

Ron Smith · 04-25-2013, 03:46 PM

This is a list of Nordsee SA badges from the collection of a German collector. As in the attached photo..

These Nordsee SA groups existed.

It was also very common for Military and Police Schools or training facilities to property mark their equipment. The German Navy pantographed property marks on their equipment and weapons until approximately 1940.

Since the Nordsee Gruppe was located near, or possibly at the Naval station at Bremen, it wouldn't be a stretch for them to have had their weapons marked by the same facility.

SA-Gruppen

Gruppe Nordsee – Kampfsporttage der NSDAP 1933 Bremen - #93
Gruppe Nordsee – Tag der SA 1936 Bremen - #50, #66
Gruppe Nordsee – Sportwettkämpfe 1938 - #9
Gruppe Nordsee – Wehrkampftage 1939 - #51
Gruppe Nordsee – Wehrkampftage 1939 plastic- #97

Norme · 04-25-2013, 04:07 PM

Hi Ron, You've got me convinced. Thank's for the education.
Best regards, Norm

Ron Smith · 04-25-2013, 04:14 PM

Hi Norm,

That makes two of us...

In fact, if this SA Gruppe was stationed at the Naval Station in Bremen. It makes even more sense that they would have their weapons property marked, in order to distinguish them from Navy issue, or to keep them from being comshawed by the Navy personnel.

Thanks...

Ron

pitsword · 04-25-2013, 09:12 PM

"comshawd". Haven't heard that in a few years. That is how I used to get spare parts for the "E" gang on my diesel boats. A five gallon tin of coffee could get a mg set overhauled. In Yoko our cooks would cook so much extra and then carefully wrap it safely in the trash. The yard birds ate well from what was sent to the pier and we got some of the best yard work ever done. Submarine comissary budget had much more than the engineering budget...being Submariners we could make it work.
Dive, Dive, take her deep..make your depth 58 feet. That is all.

04-21-2013, 08:58 PM	#1
kro User Join Date: Apr 2013 Posts: 41 Thanks: 1 Thanked 12 Times in 4 Posts	Help to ID NSDAP markings on Luger New to forum and would like help from the experts on the significance of the markings on the front strap of this Luger. It does not belong to me. A friend of mine asked for help and I don't know much about Lugers he let me take pictures to post on this site. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Attached Thumbnails

04-21-2013, 09:35 PM	#2
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,771 Thanks: 4,925 Thanked 3,123 Times in 1,434 Posts	Somebody been monkeying around...This marking is as fake as John Kerry's Silver Star. __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

04-22-2013, 12:12 AM	#4
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,771 Thanks: 4,925 Thanked 3,123 Times in 1,434 Posts	Ken, Have your Friend remove the grips and see if they perchance match this pistol. They are a terrible fit. Not right at all IMO. They should taper down flush to the edge of the gripstrap. __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

04-25-2013, 10:27 AM	#13
Ron Smith User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 4,243 Thanks: 118 Thanked 245 Times in 150 Posts	Hi Ken, There indeed was an "SA der NSDAP Gruppe Nordsee". An SA training school. Here are some original documents from an SA Troopers personnel files. IMO, your friend has a very, very, rare and desirable unit marked, or more correctly, "Property marked" Luger. The markings are Pantographed rather than stamped, which would be correct for the era. A quote from the description of the documents: "Rotenführer according to a file page from the NSDAP, Gruppe Nordsee. A report from the SA group school Nordsee in a paper entitled “Beurteilung” has many good things to say about trooper Harms and it is signed by the Obersturmbannführer v. Engelin with the official stamp with eagle and swastika of the Nordsee Gruppe." Ron Attached Thumbnails Attached Images __________________ I Still Need DWM side plate #49... if anyone runs across a nice one. What ~Rudyard Kipling~ said... Last edited by Ron Smith; 04-25-2013 at 11:26 AM.

04-25-2013, 03:30 PM	#16
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,771 Thanks: 4,925 Thanked 3,123 Times in 1,434 Posts	Doug..Hang on for a day or two and I am sure I can get one... Ron may be correct. I guess anything is possible but IF it's a one of... it might be hard to prove it's legitimate. I guess at this point the jury is still out. I was interested to see that there actually IS/was an "SA der NSDAP Gruppe Nordsee". __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

04-21-2013, 11:40 PM	#3
kro User Join Date: Apr 2013 Posts: 41 Thanks: 1 Thanked 12 Times in 4 Posts	Thanks for the info. I will pass on your observations.

04-22-2013, 12:36 AM	#5
kro User Join Date: Apr 2013 Posts: 41 Thanks: 1 Thanked 12 Times in 4 Posts	OK I'll call and ask him to check. I'm assuming they should have the last two numbers of the serial number?

04-22-2013, 12:44 AM	#6
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,771 Thanks: 4,925 Thanked 3,123 Times in 1,434 Posts	Ken, Yes..the last 2 and perhaps an Eagle 63 or a WaA of some sort of acceptance mark. __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

04-22-2013, 11:42 AM	#7
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	Ruined a nice wartime Mauser

04-22-2013, 08:39 PM	#8
kro User Join Date: Apr 2013 Posts: 41 Thanks: 1 Thanked 12 Times in 4 Posts	We removed the grips and they are marked with the last two digits of the serial number which is 21. There are no other markings.

04-22-2013, 09:48 PM	#9
DavidJayUden Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 4,047 Thanks: 578 Thanked 1,414 Times in 887 Posts	So what does it translate to? dju

04-22-2013, 11:30 PM	#10
kro User Join Date: Apr 2013 Posts: 41 Thanks: 1 Thanked 12 Times in 4 Posts	I have no idea. It was bought I believe at gun show in the late 70's early 80's. He thought there was some paper work with it and he is looking for it.

04-22-2013, 11:52 PM	#11
DavidJayUden Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 4,047 Thanks: 578 Thanked 1,414 Times in 887 Posts	Something like: The NAZI SA Group North Sea

04-23-2013, 11:17 AM	#12
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	Yes, from the Elite shipboard SA Commandos!

04-25-2013, 10:43 AM	#14
singleshotman User Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 44 Thanks: 0 Thanked 9 Times in 6 Posts	i did not know there was a school on how to beat up people, i always assumed it was on the job training.

04-25-2013, 03:21 PM	#15
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	I would dearly like to see another example before I bought that story. Can anybody point to another example?

04-25-2013, 03:46 PM	#17
Ron Smith User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 4,243 Thanks: 118 Thanked 245 Times in 150 Posts	This is a list of Nordsee SA badges from the collection of a German collector. As in the attached photo.. These Nordsee SA groups existed. It was also very common for Military and Police Schools or training facilities to property mark their equipment. The German Navy pantographed property marks on their equipment and weapons until approximately 1940. Since the Nordsee Gruppe was located near, or possibly at the Naval station at Bremen, it wouldn't be a stretch for them to have had their weapons marked by the same facility. SA-Gruppen Gruppe Nordsee – Kampfsporttage der NSDAP 1933 Bremen - #93 Gruppe Nordsee – Tag der SA 1936 Bremen - #50, #66 Gruppe Nordsee – Sportwettkämpfe 1938 - #9 Gruppe Nordsee – Wehrkampftage 1939 - #51 Gruppe Nordsee – Wehrkampftage 1939 plastic- #97 Attached Images __________________ I Still Need DWM side plate #49... if anyone runs across a nice one. What ~Rudyard Kipling~ said...

04-25-2013, 04:07 PM	#18
Norme Always A Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Colorado Posts: 2,417 Thanks: 226 Thanked 2,603 Times in 933 Posts	Hi Ron, You've got me convinced. Thank's for the education. Best regards, Norm

04-25-2013, 04:14 PM	#19
Ron Smith User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 4,243 Thanks: 118 Thanked 245 Times in 150 Posts	Hi Norm, That makes two of us... In fact, if this SA Gruppe was stationed at the Naval Station in Bremen. It makes even more sense that they would have their weapons property marked, in order to distinguish them from Navy issue, or to keep them from being comshawed by the Navy personnel. Thanks... Ron __________________ I Still Need DWM side plate #49... if anyone runs across a nice one. What ~Rudyard Kipling~ said... Last edited by Ron Smith; 05-23-2013 at 09:10 AM.

04-25-2013, 09:12 PM	#20
pitsword User Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Southern Maine Posts: 459 Thanks: 3,964 Thanked 103 Times in 83 Posts	"comshawd". Haven't heard that in a few years. That is how I used to get spare parts for the "E" gang on my diesel boats. A five gallon tin of coffee could get a mg set overhauled. In Yoko our cooks would cook so much extra and then carefully wrap it safely in the trash. The yard birds ate well from what was sent to the pier and we got some of the best yard work ever done. Submarine comissary budget had much more than the engineering budget...being Submariners we could make it work. Dive, Dive, take her deep..make your depth 58 feet. That is all.