Possible Auction Fraud on Gunbroker?

[Doug G.]

This is my email to the seller of this gun.

"Are you aware that the magazine that you have with this gun is NOT a correct mag? It is plainly forged as one can still see the grind marks to remove the old number. To top it off the forger did not even bother to use the correct size number punches. Or to not put the serial number on upside down! Hope you didn't get taken when you bought this gun!" <img border="0" alt="[grrrrrrr]" title="" src="graemlins/cussing.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[grrrrrrr]" title="" src="graemlins/cussing.gif" />
GUNBROKER P.08 AUCTION

I honestly don't see how anyone could be fooled by this piss poor job of forced matching of a mag! The only other thing is that it looks too fresh!
<img border="0" alt="[soapbox]" title="" src="graemlins/soapbox.gif" />

[ToggleTop]

Hello,
I have found you have to read the descriptions very carefully. You notice it does not say it has a matching magazine, but a magazine with the matching serial number of the pistol. I think there is a big difference in what the seller is saying. Most of us would say it has a matching magazine. So what is being said by the seller is true. These volks selling this stuff are pretty darn sharp!

Regards,

[Doug G.]

Ok, semantics aside, the seller is asking big $$ for this gun. Why does he not plainly say that the mag is a force match? Still seems shady and not right. The people who buy the "Limited Edition Iron Cross P.08" will end up with this one.

[ToggleTop]

P.08,
That's exactly what the seller thinks and wants, don't you think!

Regards,

[ToggleTop]

P.08,
When I first saw that auction I had to laugh, I even saved the image to my hard drive for future reference and laughing periods!

Regards,

[Edward Tinker]

Amazing, and I wonder if it'll sell? Then a month from now be on some poor blokes table with an amazing story, looks awful nice, but could be the oil on it? but I can't see any holster wear and it doesn't say it isn't refinished, just that its in excellent shape.

The guy has 25 or 26 pages of guns for sale tho!
And his feedback rating is all A+ rating on the first page except for one F?

[Luke]

[Doug G.]

Update, I guess the dealer really is a honest person. The auction is now closed to bidders. I truely hope that he gets to return it to the faker who sold it to him!

[trigger643]

I was at a gun show in Dallas about a decade ago and a fellow had not 1, but 4 "SS marked" Lugers on his table ranging in price from $1,000 to $1,500. As I recall, only one was a matching S# gun, a WW1 vintage, all had been reblued and the "SS" rhunes had been carved into each grip with a wood burner (but done pretty well). A couple of months later I saw the guy at another show in San Antonio. Again he had 4 of these guns, but the DWM wasn't one of them. This time I called him on it, and he stated he'd bought about half a dozen from the same vet's son's best friend's uncle's poker buddy's widow (or some such) who liberated them from such and such concentration camp, of course there was no paper trail and he was just trying to get his money back out of them and they "might be real or not".

My sell rule has always been if it looks suspect, disclose it, let other's decide. If you don't know what you have, tell the buyer. And never ever buy anything you aren't 100% certain of, especially when it comes to German Militaria and weapons.

[Pete Ebbink]

I would rather buy a luger that merely has a "correct" magazine than one that has a "matching" magazine.

It just does not seem important enough for me to pay that extra $ 200-400 added to the gun's price for a matching clip...and then there are those rigs with 2-3 matching magazines... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" />

With the presence of blank magazine bottoms and custom die stamps for sale at gun shows and elsewhere, and cottage craftsmen that will make up what ever you are looking for; it just is not worth it...

I think it more reasonable for a luger that is 60-100 years old to have been separated from its factory issued magazine(s) a long time ago; so getting a "correct" magazine has now become my buying "comfort zone"...JMHO...

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

[Jimbo]

I can't speak from experience but I defer to Still who said there are far more matching magazines on Lugers today than there were 40 years ago, meaning most are faked or boosted. I believe him.

[Pete Ebbink]

Hello P-08,

Just a small disagreement with one point in what you say :

I think a "forced match" is trying to find a small part with the correct serial number. For example; my S-code HK luger is serial # 2122 but the magazine is numbered # 2400. If I hunted down the "lost" magazine # 2122 and found it, that would be a forced match. There is a guy in NAPCA that even provides and advertises this service.

On the other hand, if what you stated this Gun Broker seller of having; that is, a magazine with old numbers ground off and new ones stamped is true, I think this is not a case of a "forced match". But rather a case of boosting/faking...

A final side note; from the number of ads in our WTB Classified Ad section; it appears many Luger Forum members are looking for the "right" serial numbered parts, i.e. force matching...

My personal problem with forced matching is that years later the improved piece can be resold as "all original and all matching"...

JMHO...

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

[saxman]

Pete; You must realize that to many of us, 'restoring' a Luger, or any other old gun, is the same as restoring a car. With a car, if you find the right hood scoop for your '74 Trans Am, you're happy, even though it obviously came from a different car. It gives me a lot of enjoyment hunting down the 'right' part for my Luger, right down to the correct last two digits. I see your side, too, as this practice makes it difficult if not impossible to determine an authentic matching gun from a forced match. Unfortunately, human nature being as it is, and with the ready availabiity of original numbered parts, I think this is a losing battle. I admit that although I would never try to sell my gun as matching (even if it had all correct numbers, which it never will), I have no control over what may be said about it after I'm gone. Collectors like you and consumers like me just have to be careful and knowledgable.

[wterrell]

saxman,
You are speaking of collecting the "lower end" of collectibles. That is where the restoration occurs.
The upper end of auto collecting abides by the rules of rarity and condition that apply to handguns. Hitler's auto is worth more in original condition than restored. An original Ford Model A with 10,000 miles on it is worth more than any similar Model A that has been restored to mint.
There is no argument to justify restoration of the more desireable items.

[policeluger]

Don't faint Wes but I am in total agreement. If you find lets say the correct numbered sideplate you've been looking for, and add it too a miss matched gun too complete the gun as now matching, are you calling this a "matched gun". Or will the next owner call it an "arsenal rework" too pass it off as being correct?

[saxman]

Wes; Agreed.
Policeluger; Like the man said, there are more 'matching' guns around now than there were 40 years ago. I think the well is already poisoned. Just like M1 Carbines - They were mostly all upgraded for the Korean War. Now, everybody wants a WWII version, and sure enough, more are found all the time. Most of them have to be put-togethers.

[Doug G.]

Pete:

Semantics aside the guy was selling a gun with an undeniably bogus magazine. When told of it he properly closed the auction. Now to tell whether he is honest or not we need to see if this gun gets re-auctioned with the serial number turned the right way round!

By the way to me forced match = fraud if you sell it as anything other as a parts gun. <img border="0" alt="[soapbox]" title="" src="graemlins/soapbox.gif" />