Looking for 1905 45 ACP Luger blueprints

LugerMan.com · 02-14-2012, 11:58 AM

Hi,
I have been thinking about making a small batch of 45 ACP 1905 Luger reproductions.

For the longest time i have been looking for a set of blueprints or a one of the modern copies to make blue prints from.

Any one has a source of one or the other ?
I know it's a long shot ... but if I do not start looking, i will never be able to for-fill my dream.

I am willing to make generous compensation for a complete set of blue prints or a gun to make them from.

Also what do you think about a market interest of such item ?

Thanks.

Ron Wood · 02-14-2012, 02:18 PM

Mike Krause in California has been making exact replicas of the .45 Luger for a number of years. He had access to, and reverse engineered, the .45 Luger formerly in the Aberman collection. I suspect that Mike has made engineering drawings for his production but I doubt he would be willing to share

(but I could be wrong!). I purchased his production serial number 7 from him quite a while ago. I don't know how many he produced or if he is still making them

LugerMan.com · 02-14-2012, 02:34 PM

Do you still have the item that you purchased from him ?
Can we arrange something that will let me reverse engineer what you have ?

Ron Wood · 02-14-2012, 03:34 PM

Eugene,
I still have it. I am a bit reluctant to ship around a $15,000 item, and would not do so without Mike's permission. He has proprietary interest in the design. You might contact him directly to get his feelings about sharing. His website is http://www.krausewerk.com/
Ron

LugerMan.com · 02-14-2012, 03:39 PM

Thanks for the tip and for the link.

Just got of the phone with Mike.
He told me he is at the end of the production of his Luger 45s he is done about 50.

He also is willing to sell me blue prints for only 2.5 K.
Witch sounds very reasonable to me.

I visit San Francisco every 2 years and i may visit his shop,
he actually offered some over run parts he may have for the 45.

So, may be i will have my dream after all.

I was going to make some 45 navy guns as well as carbines.

Just need to scope out the market for it ...

sheepherder · 02-14-2012, 04:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LugerMan.com

He also is willing to sell me blue prints for only 2.5 K.
Witch sounds very reasonable to me.

$2500???

(Where's my defibrillator..."I'se comin', Weasy"...)

LugerMan.com · 02-14-2012, 04:17 PM

Well,
I got two options
buy a 20K gun and reverse it myself
or by blue prints for 2.5K and save some time.

If anyone has a cheaper way of selling me blue prints, they can have first dips on the 45 Lugers I will make ;0)

Patronen · 02-14-2012, 08:37 PM

(Where's my defibrillator..."I'se comin', Weasy"...)

[/QUOTE]

I hope you do realize I laughed for an hour!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=stdi-1tIUhM&feature

LugerMan.com · 02-14-2012, 10:19 PM

Thanks for input everyone,
let me address all the points that where listed:

1. Price points:
Standard 1905 45 ACP will be around $12k-13k
Navy Model 1905 45 ACP will be around $13k-14k
Artillery Model 1905 in 45 ACP will be $14k-15k
Carbine 1905 45 ACP will be $17k-18k

Multiple orders will get 5% discount
FFL orders will get 10% discount

2. Timing: I do have a machinist working for me now. He is helping me out when i need some small parts made, that can not be found. Artillery barrels is one of them. He is just not a full time with me now. But that can change if i find more for him to do. I do have a shop with industrial tooling. So making parts is not a problem.
I am an engineer by trade , so i can estimate production cost and time. I am thinking that withing a year time i will have all parts that a re needed made.
Then it will take about a 2-3 weeks for the first gun to show up.
And the last will show up withing a 1 year . So i take it full production cycle for 20 guns is 2 years with one man working full time on it.. I hire a second machinist for a second shift on the mill, i can cut production by 30% or so.

I know almost everything there is to know about luger functioning, so I am sure i can make then work reliably. Or at least as good as original was working. ;0)

If you been on my site and have seen or purchased carbines from me, you know that metal work is done right.

I made some small parts for 1900 Model including triggers and extractors.

My plan is to do the same as Mike K did, and first production gun will go to Guns and Ammo for a show and tell.

My press , or bed press anyways ... is all about time lines.
Find someone complaining about quality and then we will talk.

There will be a legal notarized contract, that will secure down payment funds and timeline.

I just need small amount of people willing to invest there money in to a a dream.

And I will get my machinist busy full time.
I an even report on the progress made.

And yes the frame is the hardest, and i will start with that, because if that is done the rest is not a problem.

I think it will take 4 month to produce 20 frames , so all of initial investors will know when the frames are done.

3. As far as Cone hummers and other guns, it's interesting that it came up so quickly. As I was thinking exactly same way. Every one reproduces revolvers , but no one goes for auto reproductions. I'd take on Mannlichers , Cone and other turn of the century guns.

But i think Luger 45 ACP is so iconic , that it's the only gun that people will pay 15k and up for .

All and all i see support as well as some natural skepticism. I hope love for collector guns will overcome the fear.

Because as crazy as i am , i will not be able to do this in a vacuum.

By the number of responses in one day, I take it it' s a hot topic.

Thanks.

Ron Wood · 02-14-2012, 03:43 PM

Glad you were able to get through to Mike! Hopefully everything will work out for you. I wish you the best of luck.

Man, I would love to have a .45 carbine!...but I am well past the time I could afford such a jewel (retired fixed income and all that

)
Ron

LugerMan.com · 02-14-2012, 04:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ron Wood

Glad you were able to get through to Mike! Hopefully everything will work out for you. I wish you the best of luck.

Man, I would love to have a .45 carbine!...but I am well past the time I could afford such a jewel (retired fixed income and all that

)
Ron

If you start making payments now , you way be 1/2 to the total amount by the time i am done with a first batch of guns.

I am thinking 2-3 years from the moment i get blue prints.

TheRomanhistorian · 02-14-2012, 05:18 PM

Hi Eugene,

Wow, hopefully you can get this going. I don't know if I could ever afford a .45 ACP Luger but I should start saving now.

I imagine there must still be some interest in these!

LugerMan.com · 02-14-2012, 05:45 PM

Good, I got a first taker on the 45 ACP Luger.

I am thinking to get this project going we need 10-15 clients,
that will agree to pre-orders at reduced cost.

And 50% bases down payments with 2 year waiting list,
And we will be in business.

I will be taking orders for army issue , navy 45 ACP or a carbine in 45 ACP.

For such a amount we will have to make legal contracts, signed by both sides ...

Any takers on this ... please let me know.

Let's see where the road will take us.

Thanks.

Ron Wood · 02-14-2012, 05:42 PM

For what it is worth, I think $2.5K is pretty reasonable for a working set of drawings for a .45 Luger. A darned sight better than trying to work one up from scratch, plus the dimensions are spot on for the original DWM gun. If one is serious about producing these guns, it is a sound investment in my opinion.

Ron Wood · 02-14-2012, 06:02 PM

Just as an afterthought, at $2.5K I do not think it would be unreasonable to stipulate exclusive rights to the blueprints/measured drawings. That way you would eliminate competition unless you further licensed the drawings, and if for some reason you could not go into production you could recoup your investment in the drawings if someone else wished to take up the project.
If you really want to attract potential buyers, you need to establish a price point for the three variations. This will require realistic estimation of production costs and realistic production time. Investors need to have some assurance they will be guarenteed a gun as specified in a timely manner. I think a two to three year lead for production is reasonable. To be informed after two years on a waiting list that it will be another two years until delivery would not be a good marketing practice.

LugerMan.com · 02-14-2012, 10:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ron Wood

Just as an afterthought, at $2.5K I do not think it would be unreasonable to stipulate exclusive rights to the blueprints/measured drawings. That way you would eliminate competition unless you further licensed the drawings, and if for some reason you could not go into production you could recoup your investment in the drawings if someone else wished to take up the project.
If you really want to attract potential buyers, you need to establish a price point for the three variations. This will require realistic estimation of production costs and realistic production time. Investors need to have some assurance they will be guarenteed a gun as specified in a timely manner. I think a two to three year lead for production is reasonable. To be informed after two years on a waiting list that it will be another two years until delivery would not be a good marketing practice.

You have a point, there.
But i think that if any one as crazy as i am, we can team up and split the production instead. Competition in this field is next to nothing... I welcome it.

alvin · 02-14-2012, 06:35 PM

Why not making some 20-shot conehammers, I bet there is a market for it, as long as the it looks great and the price is right. (or semi-auto version of Astra 902, probably that will be easier).

sheepherder · 02-14-2012, 07:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alvin

Why not making some 20-shot conehammers...

Why not Borchardts??? I'll send in a couple grand as down payment on a 2 year production Borchardt...

...And I am serious...

jared427 · 02-14-2012, 07:40 PM

I'm interested, what do you think a ballpark figure would be? Also a matching snail drum would be pretty sweet!

LugerMan.com · 02-14-2012, 10:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jared427

I'm interested, what do you think a ballpark figure would be? Also a matching snail drum would be pretty sweet!

Good a second person knowing what they want out of life.

I think a snail drum is a bit hard .
I do not have a press and that drum is all stamped.

Making mags will be a challenging as it is.

I may contact Mac-Gar to make the mags, as they are doing such a good job with the 9mm mags. I think they are the best on the market.

But 2 people willing to start the project is 10% of the people i need to get it going.

02-14-2012, 11:58 AM	#1
LugerMan.com User Join Date: Feb 2012 Posts: 377 Thanks: 91 Thanked 354 Times in 112 Posts	Looking for 1905 45 ACP Luger blueprints Hi, I have been thinking about making a small batch of 45 ACP 1905 Luger reproductions. For the longest time i have been looking for a set of blueprints or a one of the modern copies to make blue prints from. Any one has a source of one or the other ? I know it's a long shot ... but if I do not start looking, i will never be able to for-fill my dream. I am willing to make generous compensation for a complete set of blue prints or a gun to make them from. Also what do you think about a market interest of such item ? Thanks.

02-14-2012, 02:18 PM	#2
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,988 Thanks: 1,067 Thanked 5,096 Times in 1,676 Posts	Mike Krause in California has been making exact replicas of the .45 Luger for a number of years. He had access to, and reverse engineered, the .45 Luger formerly in the Aberman collection. I suspect that Mike has made engineering drawings for his production but I doubt he would be willing to share (but I could be wrong!). I purchased his production serial number 7 from him quite a while ago. I don't know how many he produced or if he is still making them __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

02-14-2012, 02:34 PM	#3
LugerMan.com User Join Date: Feb 2012 Posts: 377 Thanks: 91 Thanked 354 Times in 112 Posts	1906 45 ACp copy Do you still have the item that you purchased from him ? Can we arrange something that will let me reverse engineer what you have ?

02-14-2012, 03:34 PM	#4
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,988 Thanks: 1,067 Thanked 5,096 Times in 1,676 Posts	Eugene, I still have it. I am a bit reluctant to ship around a $15,000 item, and would not do so without Mike's permission. He has proprietary interest in the design. You might contact him directly to get his feelings about sharing. His website is http://www.krausewerk.com/ Ron __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

02-14-2012, 03:39 PM	#5
LugerMan.com User Join Date: Feb 2012 Posts: 377 Thanks: 91 Thanked 354 Times in 112 Posts	Talking to Mike Thanks for the tip and for the link. Just got of the phone with Mike. He told me he is at the end of the production of his Luger 45s he is done about 50. He also is willing to sell me blue prints for only 2.5 K. Witch sounds very reasonable to me. I visit San Francisco every 2 years and i may visit his shop, he actually offered some over run parts he may have for the 45. So, may be i will have my dream after all. I was going to make some 45 navy guns as well as carbines. Just need to scope out the market for it ...

02-14-2012, 04:17 PM	#7
LugerMan.com User Join Date: Feb 2012 Posts: 377 Thanks: 91 Thanked 354 Times in 112 Posts	Try finding a set Well, I got two options buy a 20K gun and reverse it myself or by blue prints for 2.5K and save some time. If anyone has a cheaper way of selling me blue prints, they can have first dips on the 45 Lugers I will make ;0)

02-14-2012, 08:37 PM	#8
Patronen User Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 312 Thanks: 335 Thanked 93 Times in 70 Posts	(Where's my defibrillator..."I'se comin', Weasy"...) [/QUOTE] I hope you do realize I laughed for an hour! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=stdi-1tIUhM&feature

02-14-2012, 10:19 PM	#9
LugerMan.com User Join Date: Feb 2012 Posts: 377 Thanks: 91 Thanked 354 Times in 112 Posts	Thanks for the input Thanks for input everyone, let me address all the points that where listed: 1. Price points: Standard 1905 45 ACP will be around $12k-13k Navy Model 1905 45 ACP will be around $13k-14k Artillery Model 1905 in 45 ACP will be $14k-15k Carbine 1905 45 ACP will be $17k-18k Multiple orders will get 5% discount FFL orders will get 10% discount 2. Timing: I do have a machinist working for me now. He is helping me out when i need some small parts made, that can not be found. Artillery barrels is one of them. He is just not a full time with me now. But that can change if i find more for him to do. I do have a shop with industrial tooling. So making parts is not a problem. I am an engineer by trade , so i can estimate production cost and time. I am thinking that withing a year time i will have all parts that a re needed made. Then it will take about a 2-3 weeks for the first gun to show up. And the last will show up withing a 1 year . So i take it full production cycle for 20 guns is 2 years with one man working full time on it.. I hire a second machinist for a second shift on the mill, i can cut production by 30% or so. I know almost everything there is to know about luger functioning, so I am sure i can make then work reliably. Or at least as good as original was working. ;0) If you been on my site and have seen or purchased carbines from me, you know that metal work is done right. I made some small parts for 1900 Model including triggers and extractors. My plan is to do the same as Mike K did, and first production gun will go to Guns and Ammo for a show and tell. My press , or bed press anyways ... is all about time lines. Find someone complaining about quality and then we will talk. There will be a legal notarized contract, that will secure down payment funds and timeline. I just need small amount of people willing to invest there money in to a a dream. And I will get my machinist busy full time. I an even report on the progress made. And yes the frame is the hardest, and i will start with that, because if that is done the rest is not a problem. I think it will take 4 month to produce 20 frames , so all of initial investors will know when the frames are done. 3. As far as Cone hummers and other guns, it's interesting that it came up so quickly. As I was thinking exactly same way. Every one reproduces revolvers , but no one goes for auto reproductions. I'd take on Mannlichers , Cone and other turn of the century guns. But i think Luger 45 ACP is so iconic , that it's the only gun that people will pay 15k and up for . All and all i see support as well as some natural skepticism. I hope love for collector guns will overcome the fear. Because as crazy as i am , i will not be able to do this in a vacuum. By the number of responses in one day, I take it it' s a hot topic. Thanks.

02-14-2012, 03:43 PM	#10
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,988 Thanks: 1,067 Thanked 5,096 Times in 1,676 Posts	Glad you were able to get through to Mike! Hopefully everything will work out for you. I wish you the best of luck. Man, I would love to have a .45 carbine!...but I am well past the time I could afford such a jewel (retired fixed income and all that ) Ron __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

02-14-2012, 05:18 PM	#12
TheRomanhistorian User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 301 Thanks: 170 Thanked 88 Times in 64 Posts	Hi Eugene, Wow, hopefully you can get this going. I don't know if I could ever afford a .45 ACP Luger but I should start saving now. I imagine there must still be some interest in these! __________________ Michael Nos morituri te salutant - Supposed saying of the gladiators to the emperor ('We, who are about to die, salute you.') 'We are the lantern bearers, my friend; for us to keep something burning, to carry what light we can forward into the darkness and the wind' - From Rosemary Sutcliff's The Lantern Bearers

02-14-2012, 05:45 PM	#13
LugerMan.com User Join Date: Feb 2012 Posts: 377 Thanks: 91 Thanked 354 Times in 112 Posts	1st taker for 45 ACP Good, I got a first taker on the 45 ACP Luger. I am thinking to get this project going we need 10-15 clients, that will agree to pre-orders at reduced cost. And 50% bases down payments with 2 year waiting list, And we will be in business. I will be taking orders for army issue , navy 45 ACP or a carbine in 45 ACP. For such a amount we will have to make legal contracts, signed by both sides ... Any takers on this ... please let me know. Let's see where the road will take us. Thanks.

02-14-2012, 05:42 PM	#14
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,988 Thanks: 1,067 Thanked 5,096 Times in 1,676 Posts	For what it is worth, I think $2.5K is pretty reasonable for a working set of drawings for a .45 Luger. A darned sight better than trying to work one up from scratch, plus the dimensions are spot on for the original DWM gun. If one is serious about producing these guns, it is a sound investment in my opinion. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

02-14-2012, 06:02 PM	#15
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,988 Thanks: 1,067 Thanked 5,096 Times in 1,676 Posts	Just as an afterthought, at $2.5K I do not think it would be unreasonable to stipulate exclusive rights to the blueprints/measured drawings. That way you would eliminate competition unless you further licensed the drawings, and if for some reason you could not go into production you could recoup your investment in the drawings if someone else wished to take up the project. If you really want to attract potential buyers, you need to establish a price point for the three variations. This will require realistic estimation of production costs and realistic production time. Investors need to have some assurance they will be guarenteed a gun as specified in a timely manner. I think a two to three year lead for production is reasonable. To be informed after two years on a waiting list that it will be another two years until delivery would not be a good marketing practice. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

02-14-2012, 06:35 PM	#17
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	Why not making some 20-shot conehammers, I bet there is a market for it, as long as the it looks great and the price is right. (or semi-auto version of Astra 902, probably that will be easier).

02-14-2012, 07:40 PM	#19
jared427 User Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 15 Thanks: 0 Thanked 4 Times in 2 Posts	I'm interested, what do you think a ballpark figure would be? Also a matching snail drum would be pretty sweet!