What to do?

nukem556 · 04-15-2014, 09:20 PM

These pics were sent to me from a friend who was recently bequeathed this Luger from a deceased friend. Looks to be a fairly nice 20's Commercial with a ummmmm......problem. Is there any way to "re-legalize" this one? I've advised him not to take possession yet.

mrerick · 04-15-2014, 10:11 PM

Here's the law reference:

http://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/27/478.34

Removal of a gun's serial number is a Federal felony crime.

There are discussions about police restoration of defaced serial numbers:

http://www.peoriaaz.gov/uploadedFile...al_Numbers.pdf

http://www.ncids.com/forensic/sbi/Fi...12-07-2012.pdf

Also a discussion here:

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=503489

Edward Tinker · 04-15-2014, 10:17 PM

not a lawyer, but there are several ways - not marked on the left?

There is a section in the ATF that states how serial numbers can be re-added

Although people on here will give me hell about this; serial numbers were not required until 1968 - so the block on the 4773 where if it has no serial number you can write in NSN (yes, I know that it says again and again, that sn's can not be removed)

also, I have seen folks use ANY number on a gun as the sn

Can ANY numbers be faintly seen?

Of course, if I had possession of it, I would find another frame and swap it

lugerholsterrepair · 04-16-2014, 12:35 AM

Of course, if I had possession of it, I would whack a big ole 123 in the front of the frame and whistle Dixie.

Ron Wood · 04-16-2014, 12:44 AM

1920s Commercial...very common and relatively easy to acquire at the present time. As much as I hate to see an original piece not preserved for history, this one has had the kiss of death. As far as I know there is no way to enter it back into the system. I am sad to say that for all concerned it would be best legally to break it down for parts and let future generations use them to keep their Lugers functioning. Sic transit gloria mundi.

Sergio Natali · 04-16-2014, 02:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ron Wood

1920s Commercial...very common and relatively easy to acquire at the present time. As much as I hate to see an original piece not preserved for history, this one has had the kiss of death. As far as I know there is no way to enter it back into the system. I am sad to say that for all concerned it would be best legally to break it down for parts and let future generations use them to keep their Lugers functioning. Sic transit gloria mundi.

I don't live in the USA but simple common sense makes me agree 100% with Ron.

Sergio

John Sabato · 04-16-2014, 09:31 AM

I concur 100% with Ron on this. The only reason that the front of the frame, and the bottom of the barrel would have been "sanitized" in such a manner would be if sometime in this gun's life it was stolen. That could have happened 85 years ago, or it could have happened last year...

Even if the original number could be determined by x-ray or acid etching the surface, the gun could very likely be in the NCIC database as stolen. The last two digits of the serial number still appear on the bottom of the sideplate, and bottom of the takedown lever.

You only have two alternatives IMHO...

1) turn the gun into the local police or ATF with the explanation of how it was obtained. If they can determine the actual serial number and have no reports that the gun is stolen, the ATF can re-serialize the gun, and you can possibly get it back as a shooter, although you will probably have to pay some kind of fee for their services.

OR

2) You can strip all the useable parts and destroy the frame... If you take this option, you can cut the frame through the trigger guard and keep the "grip" area... Why? because you will have rendered it to be no longer a Firearm and the grip area can be used for creating, shaping and fitting new grips without worrying about sanding on the frame... or you can sell that grip piece to someone who is in that business (...like maybe Ithacaartist or Hugh Clark?)

Good Luck and let us know which way you eventually go...

The choice is up to you and your friend.

sheepherder · 04-16-2014, 09:51 AM

Although I would be inclined to use Jerry's idea, John's suggestion is more sensible.

In my state, a newly registered handgun must have provenance...It has to have come from somewhere...Even if you made up a number and stamped it, there is no way to know if that number is already registered...maybe as stolen, maybe legitimately...

The idea of breaking it down & selling the parts is the best. You can make as much doing that as another legal Luger would cost. The frame, since it is not useful as is, could be sold to someone wanting to make a 'baby' Luger, or a carbine, or some such where they did not want to cut up their own frame. There are always people here wanting to restore a ground-down grip lug.

Whatever you do, good luck.

04-15-2014, 09:20 PM	#1
nukem556 User Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Irmo, SC Posts: 625 Thanks: 35 Thanked 168 Times in 107 Posts	What to do? These pics were sent to me from a friend who was recently bequeathed this Luger from a deceased friend. Looks to be a fairly nice 20's Commercial with a ummmmm......problem. Is there any way to "re-legalize" this one? I've advised him not to take possession yet. Attached Thumbnails

04-15-2014, 10:11 PM	#2
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,900 Thanks: 1,372 Thanked 3,094 Times in 1,503 Posts	Here's the law reference: http://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/27/478.34 Removal of a gun's serial number is a Federal felony crime. There are discussions about police restoration of defaced serial numbers: http://www.peoriaaz.gov/uploadedFile...al_Numbers.pdf http://www.ncids.com/forensic/sbi/Fi...12-07-2012.pdf Also a discussion here: http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=503489 __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.

04-15-2014, 10:17 PM	#3
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,913 Thanks: 1,989 Thanked 4,503 Times in 2,078 Posts	not a lawyer, but there are several ways - not marked on the left? There is a section in the ATF that states how serial numbers can be re-added Although people on here will give me hell about this; serial numbers were not required until 1968 - so the block on the 4773 where if it has no serial number you can write in NSN (yes, I know that it says again and again, that sn's can not be removed) also, I have seen folks use ANY number on a gun as the sn Can ANY numbers be faintly seen? Of course, if I had possession of it, I would find another frame and swap it __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

04-16-2014, 12:35 AM	#4
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,761 Thanks: 4,857 Thanked 3,101 Times in 1,427 Posts	Of course, if I had possession of it, I would whack a big ole 123 in the front of the frame and whistle Dixie. __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

04-16-2014, 12:44 AM	#5
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,988 Thanks: 1,067 Thanked 5,098 Times in 1,676 Posts	1920s Commercial...very common and relatively easy to acquire at the present time. As much as I hate to see an original piece not preserved for history, this one has had the kiss of death. As far as I know there is no way to enter it back into the system. I am sad to say that for all concerned it would be best legally to break it down for parts and let future generations use them to keep their Lugers functioning. Sic transit gloria mundi. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

04-16-2014, 09:31 AM	#7
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	I concur 100% with Ron on this. The only reason that the front of the frame, and the bottom of the barrel would have been "sanitized" in such a manner would be if sometime in this gun's life it was stolen. That could have happened 85 years ago, or it could have happened last year... Even if the original number could be determined by x-ray or acid etching the surface, the gun could very likely be in the NCIC database as stolen. The last two digits of the serial number still appear on the bottom of the sideplate, and bottom of the takedown lever. You only have two alternatives IMHO... 1) turn the gun into the local police or ATF with the explanation of how it was obtained. If they can determine the actual serial number and have no reports that the gun is stolen, the ATF can re-serialize the gun, and you can possibly get it back as a shooter, although you will probably have to pay some kind of fee for their services. OR 2) You can strip all the useable parts and destroy the frame... If you take this option, you can cut the frame through the trigger guard and keep the "grip" area... Why? because you will have rendered it to be no longer a Firearm and the grip area can be used for creating, shaping and fitting new grips without worrying about sanding on the frame... or you can sell that grip piece to someone who is in that business (...like maybe Ithacaartist or Hugh Clark?) Good Luck and let us know which way you eventually go... The choice is up to you and your friend. __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

04-16-2014, 09:51 AM	#8
sheepherder Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: ...on the 'ol Erie Canal... Posts: 8,182 Thanks: 1,398 Thanked 4,440 Times in 2,328 Posts	Although I would be inclined to use Jerry's idea, John's suggestion is more sensible. In my state, a newly registered handgun must have provenance...It has to have come from somewhere...Even if you made up a number and stamped it, there is no way to know if that number is already registered...maybe as stolen, maybe legitimately... The idea of breaking it down & selling the parts is the best. You can make as much doing that as another legal Luger would cost. The frame, since it is not useful as is, could be sold to someone wanting to make a 'baby' Luger, or a carbine, or some such where they did not want to cut up their own frame. There are always people here wanting to restore a ground-down grip lug. Whatever you do, good luck. __________________ I like my coffee the way I like my women... ...Cold and bitter...