A Must See Movie

[Aaron]

Just saw a really great war film, "Enemy at the Gates." This is the story of the siege of Stalingrad, and is a true tale of a young Russian sniper who racks up a hundred Nazi kills. He is so good that the Germans bring in a Major who is an expert counter-sniper. Plenty of authentic Russian and German weapons are shown, but the film has such a fast pace during the battle scenes, it is hard to get a really good look at them. If you thought Saving Private Ryan was good, you will really love this one!

[Ted]

Aaron, right on! We have been talking about this movie since it came out. You are right, it is worth seeing IMO. I saw it on opening day! I can't wait to get it on DVD. Another one is coming-Pearl Harbor! Clips from this one looks good to me too! Ted

[Frank]

You will be disappointed in Pearl Harbor !! Alas, No Lugers, No Mausers and No Walthers, Sorry ">

[Hugh]

[Matt]

"Enemy at the Gates" is excellent. It shows the often unmentioned Soviet role in defeating Germany. It is debated whether the duel between the Russian and Nazi sniper really happened but the catostrophic losses by the Soviets is reality. Historians estimate that counting civilians deaths, more than 20 million Russians were killed. Also, as shown in the movie, Red Army soldiers often had as much to fear from their own leaders as the enemy.

[Frank]

Not only that but the Russian sniper in the movie didn't have the highest number of kills!!

Just think that some of the inports that everyone turns their noses up at may have seen action at Staligrad.Makes you think if those things could talk.

[Matt]

Frank,

Do you know of any history books that deal with the sniper duel? I remember a History Channel program awhile back on snipers that discussed it. Reviews I have read of the film have stated the Nazi/Soviet sniper duel may have been a Soviet propaganda story. Regardless, there is some truth to it because it is based upon real life Soviet sniper Vasily Zastiev, and no doubt there were Nazi snipers at Stalingrad. The question is whether a specific Nazi sniper was sent to eliminate Zastiev.

[DunRanull]

Hmmm... In Paul Carell's book Stalingrad, published in German and later in English, Carell discusses the duel between the snipers... he discusses it as fact that an anti-sniper "expert" was brought in. The Russkie saw a glint under a pile of corrogated sheet metal.. and that was all she wrote, compliments of Moisin Nagant! It has been some time since I read the book- borrowed years ago from a late Prussian of my acquaintance.. so I don't remember all the details... would sure like to get my hands on a copy of that book again, for my personal library.

MATT,

William Craig discuss this duel in his book ENEMY AT THE GATES.I read this book some 20 years ago and highly recommend it to all with an interest in the battle for

Stalingrad

Matt, after seeing the movie I looked up the particulars in a WWII set of encyclopedias I have. Here is the text from that.


The ruins were the natural habitat of snipers, and each army had its

recognized champions. The Russians in the Lazur chemical works had even

set up a school for snipers under the tutelage of Vasily Zaitsev, a

onetime shepherd who had perfected his marksmanship while hunting deer

in the foothills of the Ural Mountains. In one 10-day period, Zaltsev

had killed nearly 40 Germans, and his fame had spread into enemy lines.

The Germans retaliated by flying to the scene SS Colonel Heinz Thorwald,

the head of their own snipers' school at Zossen, near Berlin.


Zaitsev soon heard talk of this deadly new German sniper, and he set

down a tense account of their duel to the death: "The arrival of the

Nazi sniper set us a new task: We had to find him, study his habits and

methods, and patiently await the moment for one, and only one,

well-aimed shot. "I knew the style of the Nazi snipers by their fire and

camouflage. But the character of the head of the school was still a

mystery for me. Our day-by-day

observations told us nothing definite. it was difficult to decide in

which sector he was operating. He presumably altered his position

frequently and was looking for me as carefully as I for him. "Then

something happened. My good friend Morozov was killed, and Sheikin

wounded, by a rifle with telescopic sights. Morozov and Sheikin were

considered experienced snipers; they had often emerged victorious from

the most difficult skirmishes with the enemy.


Now there was no doubt. They had come up against the Nazi 'super-sniper'

I was looking for. "At dawn I went out with Nikolai Kulikov to the same

positions as our comrades had occupied the previous day. Inspecting the

enemy's forward positions, I found nothing new. The day was drawing to a

close. Then above a German

entrenchment unexpectedly appeared a helmet, moving slowly along a

trench. Should I shoot? No! It was a trick: The helmet somehow or other

moved unevenly and was presumably being held up by someone helping the

sniper, while he waited for me to fire. "A second day passed. Whose

nerves would be stronger? Who would

outwit whom?


"On the third day, the political instructor, Danilov, also came with us

to the ambush. The day dawned as usual: The light increased and minute

by minute the enemy's positions could be distinguished more clearly.

Battle started close by, shells hissed over us, but, glued to our

telescopic sights, we kept our eyes on what was happening ahead of us.

"'There he is! I'll point him out to you!'suddenly said the political

instructor, excitedly. He barely, literally for one second, but

carelessly, raised himself above the parapet, but that was enough for

the German to hit and wound him. "For a long time I examined the enemy

positions, but could not detect his

hiding place. To the left was a tank, out of action, and on the right

was a pillbox. Where was he? In the tank? No, an experienced sniper

would not take up position there. In the pillbox, perhaps? Not there,

either- the embrasure was closed.


Between the tank and the pill- box, on a stretch of level ground, lay a

sheet of iron and a small pile of broken bricks. It had been lying there

a long time and we had grown accustomed to its being there. I put myself

in the enemy's position and thought-where better for a sniper? One had

only to make a firing slit under the sheet of metal, and then creep up

to it during the night. "Yes, he was certainly there, under the sheet of

metal in no

man's land. I thought I would make sure. I put a mitten on the end of a

small plank and raised it. The Nazi fell for it. I carefully let the

plank down in the same position as I had raised it and examined the

bullet hole. it had gone straight through from the front; that meant

that the Nazi was under the sheet of metal. " 'There's our viper!' came

the quiet voice of Nikolai Kulikov from his hide-out next to mine. "Now

came the question of luring even a part of his head into my sights. It

was useless trying to do this straightaway. Time was needed. But I had

been able to study the German's temperament. He was not going to leave

the successful position he had found. We were therefore going to have to

change our position.


"We worked by night. We were in position by dawn. The Germans were

firing on the Volga ferries.. It grew light quickly and with daybreak

the battle developed with new intensity. But neither the rumble of guns

nor the bursting of shells and bombs nor anything else could distract us

from the job in hand. "The sun rose. We had decided to spend the morning

waiting, as we might have been given away by the sun on our telescopic

sights. After lunch our rifles were in the shade and the sun was shining

directly on the German's position. At the edge of the sheet of metal

something was glittering: an odd bit of glass or telescopic sights?

"Kulikov carefully, as only the most experienced can do, began to raise

his helmet. The German fired. For a fraction of a second Kulikov rose

and screamed. The German believed that he had finally got the Soviet

sniper he had been hunting for four days, and half raised his head from

beneath the sheet of metal. That was what I had been banking on. "I took

careful aim. The German's head fell back, and the telescopic sights of

his rifle lay motionless, glistening in the

sun until night fell."


Russian sources credited Vasily Zaitsev with killing 242 Germans before

the end of the battle of Stalingrad. Then he was blinded by a detonating

land mine.


Hope you find this as interesting as I did.


Bob


PS Zaitsev wasn't the most noted sniper - it was Nickolai Ilyin with 315

kills.

[Aaron]

Interesting to note the different sniper scores quoted by various sources. The beginning of the movie only credited the hero with 100 kills. I am reminded of a friend of mine named Jack Hass (his father was the inventor of the Hass variety of avocado}. Jack passed away a couple of years ago in Orange County, California, but he did relate to me a few stories of his service in the European theater during WWII. He served there for a period of approximately three years, and he was a renowned sniper, as during this period he was credited with nearly 1000 kills. I wish I had taken the time to get his entire story written down.

[Matt]

Great info, Bob!

After reading your post, I started looking through my Time/Life World War II book series and found that passage in "Red Army Resurgent." I guess this is one of the books I have not read yet or I had forgotten it. I've read most of the books in this series and highly recommend it.

Matt

[Johnny Peppers]

Zaitsev's account of the duel has the German master sniper making too many mistakes that an experienced sniper would never make. The worst is the German sniper taking a hide where there was no means of escape undetected and using the same hide on subsequent days. Also the German sniper would never have fallen for the glove on a stick trick, and if he thought he had made a kill, he would not have raised his head above his hide to observe his handiwork. I think Russian propaganda played a large role in Zaitsev's account.

[Marvin]

Johnny,


I was going to keep my "fingers" shut on this thread, but I can't. You are 100% correct that NO properly trained sniper would fall for these tricks. A sniper always had an escape route; once he fired a round, he was known and he had to leave. Now if there was other firing in the immediate area, he may get a couple more shots off, but that would be it and he had to leave or die!


As to the account of the Russian sniper; yes, Zaitsev was a real Russian. The account that has been told about his exploits with the "German Master Sniper" is nothing but a bunch of propoganda fabricated by the Russians and it has now become the "truth". There never was a Major Konig or Major (can't remember his name off hand) in the records of the SS, Heer, or entire Wehrmact. Even the encyclopedias have this account printed as the truth because the Russians are the only ones that have told the story. If this was true, the Germans were such great keepers of records, there would be something, somewhere, about this account and there is none. When Gorbachev opened the records after the breakup of the Soviet Union, the account is in those records and it was a total propoganda story to make the Commies fight harder for the motherland; and the lies worked.


Zaitsev was a great sniper, no question, but don't believe what only the Russians have to say about this account.


Marvin

[Milt Keller]

My nephew worked on tht pix G. Lucas "Industrial Light and Magic" He says it's all done with computers!


Milt Keller

[Ted]

I thinks that is right Milt, I hear there are some scences where the background of the mountains is as sharp in focus as the incoming planes! Ted

[Matt]

Marvin,

That's what I've wondered and several reviews of the movie have questioned, is whether the Communists made this up for propaganda value. After all, they were as big a liars as the Nazis. In the only incident I know of that Dr. Goebbels may have told the truth, was about the massacre of Polish Army officers in the Katyn forest. The Soviets blamed the Nazis and the Nazis blamed the Soviets. Research after the war indicated it was the Soviets who committed the murders.


Matt

[Marvin]

Matt,


You are correct about the Russians being so big on lieing. I think it is a natural Commie habit to lie about anything and never tell the truth. Look at the latest incedent with the Chinese and our aircraft. The US has proof of what the Chinese pilots were doing and they still deney the truth. Never trust anything the Commie say.


Marvin

[Marvin]

Bob,


You make a very good point on this. I have a Luger which was a WWI pistol, Weimar reworked, and stamped with the 1st Cavalry unit sesignation. The 1st Cav turned into the 24th Panzer Div. which was decimated at Stalingrad and rebuilt in early 1944. With the pistol was a shoulder holster that very much seems to be of German origin. The body is a cutdown P.38 holster with the straps being made from leather utility staps used by the Germans. I have always felt that maybe this pistol was at Stalingrad at some point with the 24th Panzer, but how did it get out??? I purchased this rig from a veteran who got it near the end of the war. Unfortunantly, the veteran I purchased it from bought it from another soldier.


Marvin