Norton .45 Luger Follow-Up...

Pete Ebbink · 08-19-2004, 08:52 PM

As some of you may know, there is quite a lively discussion (and debate, sometimes) occuring on Jan Still's gun discussion board about the various .45 luger pistols of the 1907 US Trials.

In those discussion, I had asked (and I have asked here on the LF in the past as well), what documentation might exist that substantiates the claim that the Norton .45 luger, now in the Norton Gallery in LA-State, was one of the 1907 US Trials lugers or an in-reserve pistol at the Trials or even a gun left-behind in Germany for safe-keeping.

One advanced collector suggested that I contact the folks at the Norton Gallery to ask about this documentaton and the gun's provenance prior to its surfacing in the 1960's and subsequent sale to the folks at the Norton Gallery, shortly thereafter. I did so.

Here is the nice reply I received from the Norton Gallery in response to my inquiry :

(Begin quote)

Dear Mr. Ebbink:

Thank you for requesting background documentation/information, etc. on our Luger .45 cal. pistol. There has been much speculation about the number of pistols actually made for the 1907 trials, but as far as I know, no positive documented proof has arisen.

I'm afraid there is not much I can add to the information already posted about our #3. It was acquired by Harry Jones from Ross Egles of Burlington, Ontario, Canada in July, 1960. Mr. Norton acquired it from Mr. Jones in that same month. We know nothing about its history from 1907 to 1960, nor do we know of any Luger experts who may have actually seen the pistol while it was in Mr. Jones' possession. As you may, or may not know, Harry Jones was a leading authority on Lugers having written several books on the subject. I seriously doubt that Mr. Norton would have asked for any other opinions as to the gun's authenticity.

I am sorry that we don't have any more history on our pistol to post on the Luger forum. If any should come to light, I will be more than happy to post it.

Sincerely,

Jerry Bloomer
Public Relations
R.W. Norton Art Gallery
4747 Creswell Ave.
Shreveport, LA 71106-1899
Phone: 318-865-4201
Web: www.rwnaf.org

(End quote)

Thought folks might be interested in reading this update regarding the Norton luger.

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

John D. · 08-19-2004, 09:03 PM

Interesting reply - at a lot of levels....

John D.
(I deleted my first reply for this reply. Ask me why someday - except it had to do with provenance being "acquired" through "publications" and/or "being published" using 3rd party research, rather then doing original "research" to maintain veracity of a variation.) Interesting conundrum.

Edward Tinker · 08-19-2004, 09:40 PM

Well, I seem to get caught in the middle of things, but Jan actually stated this; <blockquote>quote:<hr />There is nothing in the original article or posts by Mike Jones to indicate that the Norton Luger can be traced back to the 1907 U.S. Army Test Trials.<hr /></blockquote>I think that the only "proof" is that in the 1907 there was a 45 luger (the pictured one that is now missing).
The two that turned up later came from the factory.
More specifically, one was bought from Springfield Armory in 1913, the other brought back from Germany after WW1 and ended up in Canada by a guy who aquired it in germany.

So, that is the facts known, and further facts are hard to come up with.

Ed

John D. · 08-19-2004, 10:22 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Edward Tinker:
Well, I seem to get caught in the middle of things, .....<hr /></blockquote>You have a PM.....

John

Edward Tinker · 08-19-2004, 10:45 PM

Yes and it is my fault... <img border="0" alt="[oops]" title="" src="graemlins/oops.gif" />

Ed

John D. · 08-19-2004, 10:58 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Edward Tinker:
Yes and it is my fault...<hr /></blockquote><img border="0" alt="[hiha]" title="" src="graemlins/roflmao.gif" />

Well.....

I guess it doesn't matter what either you or I said, as long as Pete understands what you said, and then, that I then said, and that I said that you said - which you said I said, but you said first - which I said you said..

Is this "deja vu"??? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" />

John

Edward Tinker · 08-19-2004, 11:01 PM

dang, we keep blowin these threads to hell!

John Sabato · 08-20-2004, 09:59 AM

Just a thought...Pete I realize that it was 44 years ago, but have you tried tracking down Mr. "Ross Egles of Burlington, Ontario" or one of his descendents who may have some knowledge of the history of his gun collection or maybe his diary???

Pete Ebbink · 08-20-2004, 11:06 AM

Been working on that, John S.,

Will advise if I come up with anything...

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

John D. · 08-20-2004, 11:54 AM

I might also suggest that you backtrack through the Canadian Handgun registry for Burlington, Ontario. Handgun registration in Canada has been mandatory since about 1934 - and even if Mr. Ross Egles was a recognized collector, copies of his handguns within his possession might be archived as part of the Registry.

In doing "original research" - I'm not sure if creativity in finding leads to track down is more important then "blind luck", but I'm pretty certain it's close to equal amounts of both....

John Sabato · 08-20-2004, 12:10 PM

I found a David Egles, who lives in Victoria... using Google... no hits on Ross. I found David's email address and sent him an inquriy about possible relationship with Ross... and any information about him or his life.

I attached a receipt to the email and got a confirmation that it was delivered to his email box...

We'll see if he cares to answer.

08-19-2004, 08:52 PM	#1
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Norton .45 Luger Follow-Up... As some of you may know, there is quite a lively discussion (and debate, sometimes) occuring on Jan Still's gun discussion board about the various .45 luger pistols of the 1907 US Trials. In those discussion, I had asked (and I have asked here on the LF in the past as well), what documentation might exist that substantiates the claim that the Norton .45 luger, now in the Norton Gallery in LA-State, was one of the 1907 US Trials lugers or an in-reserve pistol at the Trials or even a gun left-behind in Germany for safe-keeping. One advanced collector suggested that I contact the folks at the Norton Gallery to ask about this documentaton and the gun's provenance prior to its surfacing in the 1960's and subsequent sale to the folks at the Norton Gallery, shortly thereafter. I did so. Here is the nice reply I received from the Norton Gallery in response to my inquiry : (Begin quote) Dear Mr. Ebbink: Thank you for requesting background documentation/information, etc. on our Luger .45 cal. pistol. There has been much speculation about the number of pistols actually made for the 1907 trials, but as far as I know, no positive documented proof has arisen. I'm afraid there is not much I can add to the information already posted about our #3. It was acquired by Harry Jones from Ross Egles of Burlington, Ontario, Canada in July, 1960. Mr. Norton acquired it from Mr. Jones in that same month. We know nothing about its history from 1907 to 1960, nor do we know of any Luger experts who may have actually seen the pistol while it was in Mr. Jones' possession. As you may, or may not know, Harry Jones was a leading authority on Lugers having written several books on the subject. I seriously doubt that Mr. Norton would have asked for any other opinions as to the gun's authenticity. I am sorry that we don't have any more history on our pistol to post on the Luger forum. If any should come to light, I will be more than happy to post it. Sincerely, Jerry Bloomer Public Relations R.W. Norton Art Gallery 4747 Creswell Ave. Shreveport, LA 71106-1899 Phone: 318-865-4201 Web: www.rwnaf.org (End quote) Thought folks might be interested in reading this update regarding the Norton luger. Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

08-19-2004, 10:22 PM	#4
John D. Administrator & Site Owner LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: A Little NE of Somewhere... Posts: 2,651 Thanks: 471 Thanked 513 Times in 127 Posts	</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by Edward Tinker: <strong>Well, I seem to get caught in the middle of things, .....</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">You have a PM..... John

08-19-2004, 10:45 PM	#5
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,915 Thanks: 1,989 Thanked 4,506 Times in 2,080 Posts	Yes and it is my fault... <img border="0" alt="[oops]" title="" src="graemlins/oops.gif" /> Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

08-19-2004, 10:58 PM	#6
John D. Administrator & Site Owner LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: A Little NE of Somewhere... Posts: 2,651 Thanks: 471 Thanked 513 Times in 127 Posts	</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by Edward Tinker: <strong>Yes and it is my fault...</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva"><img border="0" alt="[hiha]" title="" src="graemlins/roflmao.gif" /> Well..... I guess it doesn't matter what either you or I said, as long as Pete understands what you said, and then, that I then said, and that I said that you said - which you said I said, but you said first - which I said you said.. Is this "deja vu"??? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> John

08-19-2004, 11:01 PM	#7
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,915 Thanks: 1,989 Thanked 4,506 Times in 2,080 Posts	dang, we keep blowin these threads to hell! <img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[bigbye]" title="" src="graemlins/xyxwave.gif" /> __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

08-19-2004, 09:03 PM	#2
John D. Administrator & Site Owner LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: A Little NE of Somewhere... Posts: 2,651 Thanks: 471 Thanked 513 Times in 127 Posts	Interesting reply - at a lot of levels.... John D. (I deleted my first reply for this reply. Ask me why someday - except it had to do with provenance being "acquired" through "publications" and/or "being published" using 3rd party research, rather then doing original "research" to maintain veracity of a variation.) Interesting conundrum.

08-19-2004, 09:40 PM	#3
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,915 Thanks: 1,989 Thanked 4,506 Times in 2,080 Posts	Well, I seem to get caught in the middle of things, but Jan actually stated this; </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">There is nothing in the original article or posts by Mike Jones to indicate that the Norton Luger can be traced back to the 1907 U.S. Army Test Trials.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">I think that the only "proof" is that in the 1907 there was a 45 luger (the pictured one that is now missing). The two that turned up later came from the factory. More specifically, one was bought from Springfield Armory in 1913, the other brought back from Germany after WW1 and ended up in Canada by a guy who aquired it in germany. So, that is the facts known, and further facts are hard to come up with. Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

08-20-2004, 09:59 AM	#8
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	Just a thought...Pete I realize that it was 44 years ago, but have you tried tracking down Mr. "Ross Egles of Burlington, Ontario" or one of his descendents who may have some knowledge of the history of his gun collection or maybe his diary??? __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

08-20-2004, 11:06 AM	#9
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Been working on that, John S., Will advise if I come up with anything... Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

08-20-2004, 11:54 AM	#10
John D. Administrator & Site Owner LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: A Little NE of Somewhere... Posts: 2,651 Thanks: 471 Thanked 513 Times in 127 Posts	I might also suggest that you backtrack through the Canadian Handgun registry for Burlington, Ontario. Handgun registration in Canada has been mandatory since about 1934 - and even if Mr. Ross Egles was a recognized collector, copies of his handguns within his possession might be archived as part of the Registry. In doing "original research" - I'm not sure if creativity in finding leads to track down is more important then "blind luck", but I'm pretty certain it's close to equal amounts of both....

08-20-2004, 12:10 PM	#11
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	I found a David Egles, who lives in Victoria... using Google... no hits on Ross. I found David's email address and sent him an inquriy about possible relationship with Ross... and any information about him or his life. I attached a receipt to the email and got a confirmation that it was delivered to his email box... We'll see if he cares to answer. __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*