Brass deformation???

[G.T.]

Hi to all! Hey, has anyone ever found a good fix for the brass hitting the side of the receiver and either severely denting/cutting the brass, or causing ejection issues? Stove pipes and smokestack jams???.. I know there has been articles on this, but haven't found where to retrieve them?... Best to all, til....lat'r.....GT

[DonVoigt]

I've not seen severely damaged brass ejected from a luger! There is nothing for it to hit.

Better see some pictures. Also you can mark the brass and orient it in the same way each time to see which side/top/area is being hit.

[G.T.]

Hi Don, yes, it severely impacts the breech block slot, I will do as you suggest and mark the side of the issue?... GT....

[Vlim]

I had a Vopo franken luger do this. Changing the little extractor spring cured the problem on mine. The little coil spring under the extractor.

[Rick W.]

G.T.,

I think Vlim has the thought to ponder/approach.

One sometimes wonders about the real function of the extractor in a blow back type pistol. Some think that the extractor actually removes the casing from the chamber proper, others think it merely serves to hold the case against the breech face long enough that the ejector gets its timing on it for removal from the action.

Some early high standard pistols for competition had their extractors removed for improved function during rapid fire events.

One sees Luger extractors with complimentary springs that were really not meant for one another. The stack up minimum occurs before the full movement of the hook over the rim and the extractor becomes kinda a 1900 type, becomes a spring itself. This condition of too long a spring under the extractor will shorten the life of said extractor in my view.

Guess one could envision the hard over extractor holding onto the case aggressively during ejection movement, and hit the side of the barrel extension. One might take a looksee at the tip of the ejector hook for shape(?). Just a surmise, here. But one would think that something is holding onto something too long, and ramming the case against something hard. The Luger seems to be a pistol of balances throughout.

I have not really pondered how the ejector works much lately, it does have some movement laterally, and the edge forward is shaped for a reason I am sure. How all of that plays during the motion is still somewhat of a mystery here.

Rick W.

[G.T.]

Hi Rick! I very much appreciate the input! Here's a little more to ponder... when using a standard MEC-GAR mag, the ejection is consistent, robust and straight up?... When the problems occur is with a drum.... and only once or twice in a string.. BUT, it is very random, the gun may jam on the third round.. or fourteenth or the thirtieth round??? .. Very random and inconsistent... Always the same, smokestack with the next round already feeding into the chamber... I have switch out the 9MM mainsprings... weaker and stronger? No Improvement... I will attend to the ejector and see if a different one and spring might give me some clue?.... It looks perfect?... but we will see, and, I may be blind to something hidden... I'm also switching pistols and drums!!!!! no change?.. Thanks again Rick, always good to hear from you! .. til...lat'r.....GT...

[Rick W.]

I suspect that you and Vlim are way ahead of me on all of this with my simplistic viewpoint. You all will get there I am sure. There is always real help here I have found over the years getting chewed on and sometimes really to the point help.......

When I did my two Ruger No.1's in rimfire, I was having issues with the extractor/ejector. I was counseled by a NZ armorer that the hook on my extractor was too sharp and was marking the rim as an indicator, so I dulled it; and has worked for 10 years now correctly. Guess we all hear that the extractor tip should be sharp to grab the rim firmly, but perhaps there is something to be able to let go smoothly when the ejector hits; tis somewhat environment driven.

I have not handled a drum, real or otherwise, for a long time and then only casually as the collector was careful with who/what messing with his stuff. One of the times cash did not talk....

One might peruse the magazine top structure as a shot in the dark, take a few measurements as to angle and curvature versus the two top structures(reg mag vs drum), do one think the release from the magazine is the same, or does the drum magazine lips sit higher in the pistol.

As a last shot in the real dark, do you think that the marks are after the magazine loads the pistol(extractor/ejection) or are the marks made on entry into the chamber; I would suspect not, but always I find little surprises that nailed me before.....

If the pistol functions with a standard mag ok, and we think that the loading of the case is ok into the chamber; and that the issue is going out; then the extractor/ejector properties may come into play as Vlim suggested. Springs, way too sharp(previous unknown enhancements perhaps?), or hook angles might be viewed. Is there anything different physically with the drum top versus standard magazine? Sit higher, lips tighter(sometimes saves ships), or perhaps something in the spring tension of the drum(long shot).

Sorry to be so vague and some say....wordy, I have confidence that you all are on top of the issue and will solve it in spite of my babbling. You will find it, if not already done so.

[ithacaartist]

GT, I helped a similar problem my Stainless Houston Luger displayed. The rims of the ejected brass all had a triangular "karate chop" mark, along with a slight burr raised by its striking the corners of the slots inside the barrel extension. I marked the rounds to index them and discovered that the shells were striking the left side.

I removed the extractor body for closer examination and noticed that its claw was not symmetrical, and a little longer on its left side. I went easy with a needle file and evened them up a bit. Although this seemed to steer the situation in the right direction, I quit filing as soon as most of the cases made it out unscathed, or with perhaps only a mark small enough to be ironed out during reloading. Replacement stainless steel extractors are in the same category as hens' teeth, as you know!

[rhuff]

I, also, am interested in this thread. My like new 06-73 Mauser Parabellum is really quite rough on the ejected brass. I can't see anything causing it, but apparently it is quite common on these Lugers. This characteristic has not lead to any feeding inconsistencies, but I do not own a drum mag....old or new. Some of the spent brass is so dented that I just toss it, and that is tough to do for a handloader.

[Freischütz]

I thought the Kurzzeit video of a P.08 firing showed the source of brass damage - case mouth spinning back against the extractor.

[DonVoigt]

Ruff,
how about some pictures of the damaged brass - if you have any handy.

[rhuff]

Sorry Don, but I don't have any currently. I get a significant dent in the case mouth on nearly 100% of the ejected brass from this Luger. I usually shoot PMC 115gr FMJ in this Luger with excellent results. GT made me one of his whiz-bang Mauser mags with super spring and a wood base with a serial number to match the gun. I don't feel that the brass problem is mag, or ammo related. I believe that the brass is striking the left rail of the bbl. extension on ejecting. I don't know how to correct this, as the extractor looks, and works fine, and the extractor spring does not seem to coil bind.

[ithacaartist]

How about the ejector? Wouldn't a slightly different angle across the front of its tab make it hit the back of the extracted round a little bit differently?

[G.T.]

Hi to all! Well, this little problem amounted to about 200 rounds going down range for very little gain, but, I think that Vlim, Rick and Dwight ( he posted a thread about this some time ago?)are spot on!!! ... This morning back to the range, and as a last ditch effort, switched out extractors...., and boom... 100% through 22 rounds.. another issue cropped up and stopped my fun, but the unit was doing everything perfect..... Now, the original extractor looks like the poster child for excellent extractors, clean and sharp.. but as Rick said, sharp might not be what we think it is??? ... Also, as an attempt to improve recoil energy, I used 124 grain ball, and that seems to be a good thing as well...
Now for the bad, I have one more drum of the current 15 going to NUMRICH to complete, as I held them back in lieu of an improvement, and I think that will happen.. But, I am as sick as a desert dog right now with a respiratory flu that has kicked all of me, especially my A**! ... So, sorry to say, I will be down and out for about a week as I try to recover from this creeping crud! Keep trying and testing and learning, I will be back as soon as I can be... Thanks again to all, and best to all as well, til....lat'r...GT...til....lat'r....GT

[Rick W.]

I always thought that when the theoretical and the actuals kinda agreed, I rested a little better for a while. When the actuals and theoreticals did not match up, it was always a pondering moment.

It would be interesting if any differences show up in the two extractors. Relative sharpness(wear characteristic, relative bite?), shaping of the edge, extension of the nose downwards, spring tensions/compressions, stuff. Some of the issues with me is the particular environment the part is working in, has some weight in the variables assigned for solution.

Of course after due time on the couch perhaps.

I guess the 'whys' always have had a calling here, can be good or bad I reckon, but tis the way it is here.

Maybe after some time, some Tex-Mex would be in order.....

[G.T.]

Hi to all.... well after a month of, "under the weather" and several more trips to the range... here's what I learned... An excellent looking extractor, doesn't mean a great working extractor!... .... Now remember this gun works flawlessly on a regular 8 round mag, but the drums bring out the hidden weakness that may be hiding in your Luger! And this case was no different.. as I was improving bullet flow in the test drum, my extractor was wearing microscopically to offset any noticeable improvement?... In short no change, just very random jams, and marred brass???? So, in a last ditch toss crap at the problem effort! I changed out the extractor with another byf I happen to have along... and Walla! It worked 100% (3 X 32 with no problems) ..... But still marks on the brass case mouth?? ... So I took the ejector, and followed Dwight's instruction, and removed about three degrees from the front, so the tip of the ejector hits the lower middle part of the case head... Walla! That problem disappeared as well?..... ... more as I learn it! Best to all, til....lat'r.....GT...

[ithacaartist]

Originally Posted by G.T.

Hi to all.... well after a month of, "under the weather" and several more trips to the range... here's what I learned... An excellent looking extractor, doesn't mean a great working extractor!... .... Now remember this gun works flawlessly on a regular 8 round mag, but the drums bring out the hidden weakness that may be hiding in your Luger! And this case was no different.. as I was improving bullet flow in the test drum, my extractor was wearing microscopically to offset any noticeable improvement?... In short no change, just very random jams, and marred brass???? So, in a last ditch toss crap at the problem effort! I changed out the extractor with another byf I happen to have along... and Walla! It worked 100% (3 X 32 with no problems) ..... But still marks on the brass case mouth?? ... So I took the ejector, and followed Dwight's instruction, and removed about three degrees from the front, so the tip of the ejector hits the lower middle part of the case head... Walla! That problem disappeared as well?..... ... more as I learn it! Best to all, til....lat'r.....GT...

I'm curious, G.T. Did you get guidance from Dwight by PM, or do you have us mixed up?!

Glad to hear you're among the fast and furious again.

[G.T.]

Hi David! I was informed verbally and second hand about the ejector modification?......... I was told the work was performed by Dwight?.. Dwight has certainly made his fair share of contributions on the forum, and is greatly appreciated! Soooo, I could have heard it wrong, or just got it wrong, but I certainly want credit to go where credit is due, and if you're the member that did the pilot work on the modification, then my hat is tipped just as far as before, but for you this time! The results were great! I was considering cutting an small arc for relief, and see what happens there?.. Best to you David, and thanks... til.....lat'r.......GT.....

BTW, Hi David, I just now looked back and read your post that states the exact modification that I performed above? But, I never read your post up until right now, as I was not in the best of health and was away for awhile... I see where some confusion might result... Either way, you guys think alike and the problem went away! Thanks again, til...lat'r...GT

[ithacaartist]

As I always like to say, Great minds travel in the same cesspool! Dwight has certainly been in the game longer than I, so I'm not surprised by a word of mouth remedy from any time in the past.

It is, after all, a simple project once it is figured out. We note that the dimensions among relative contact points of everything involved in extracting and ejecting an empty are quite small, which means that a tiny adjustment of the ejector tip's angle presented to the rim can make a significant difference!

Hang in there, and best of luck in the finishing touches to your recovery!

[G.T.]

I'm going to try the ground radius theory and see if it works out the same.. it would then be something anyone could do with a Dremel and a small stone mounted point???... .... I appreciate your contributions Dave, keep firing away! ... best to all, til...lat'r....GT

BTW, I'm also going to radius the top of the slot in the receiver where the breech block runs, just at the area of the point of ejection? Might eliminate all, as I think it sharp dents prior to scuffing ??... GT...