RIA 1902 Cartridge Counter w stamped holster

Hugo Borchardt · 08-12-2011, 01:02 PM

Got my color RIA Sept auction catalog in the mail today:

http://www.rockislandauction.com/vie...id/53/lid/3127

What do we think of this one?

If it is legit, I think the stamp of the Ordnance Corps on the holster is extremely interesting.

Think it will fetch 50k+ per the estimate?

Clark

command450 · 08-12-2011, 02:02 PM

it sure is a doll.

I would think its worth it.

How many are known to exist,today?

Ron Wood · 08-12-2011, 04:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by command450

how many are known to exist,today?

43

Mike B · 08-12-2011, 06:20 PM

"the Cartridge Counter model is nearly identical to the 1900 Model Test Luger, with the addition of the Powell Device." That is a quote from RIA. If 50 of the test Lugers were removed from service to be tried out with the larger caliber 9mm, were the barrels changed or did a seperate order go out for 50 more chambered for the 9mm?

Mike

Ron Wood · 08-12-2011, 07:12 PM

Fifty of the 7.65 Lugers "in good condition" were returned in exchange for a like number of 9mm Cartridge Counters. The CC guns are in an entirely different serial number range than the 7.65mm guns, and had special machining to accommodate the cartridge counter magazine

hgreer2 · 08-12-2011, 07:54 PM

Am I being too cynical here or are there as many fakes as originals ?

Harry

Ron Wood · 08-12-2011, 08:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hgreer2

Am I being too cynical here or are there as many fakes as originals ?

Harry

Who knows? I haven't examined all of them and don't know anybody that has. I have only encountered one that I know is a fake, one that I suspect is a fake, two other examples where there are two guns with the same serial number (ergo, one is a fake

), two that I know have been restored and some that I suspect have been restored or "touched up" but genuine none-the-less. So I gues that I would say that on the whole there probably aren't as many fakes as originals, but hang around, they may be gaining!

guns3545 · 08-12-2011, 08:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike B

"the Cartridge Counter model is nearly identical to the 1900 Model Test Luger, with the addition of the Powell Device." That is a quote from RIA. If 50 of the test Lugers were removed from service to be tried out with the larger caliber 9mm, were the barrels changed or did a seperate order go out for 50 more chambered for the 9mm?

Mike

Mike,

It is very well documented that an exchange took place. Based on orders from Ordnance on August 17, 1903 the CCs were created from the series that contained what we know here as the 9mm Fat Barrel and are in that series. DWM took 50 9mm guns out of production and installed the Powell Indicating Device and shipped them to the USA with arrival on April 20, 1904. It took a long time to get the Powell Devices fabricated and shipped to DWM. Between August 1903 and the arrival of the CCs in April 1904, the Ordnance Department continued penetration and other testing on both 7.65mm and some sample 9mm guns which had been delivered in the course of 1903.

Bottom line there is little or no similarity between the 7.65 mm with a 120 mm barrel and the CC at 9mm(or as the Ordnance Board called it .39 inch) and a 98 mm barrel.

Hope this helps.

John

sheepherder · 08-13-2011, 05:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clark Rickman

Got my color RIA Sept auction catalog in the mail today...

Ooh ooh!!! Hide that catalog!!!

If Alvin sees that Mauser Model 1912/14 Experimental Pistol in 9mm with Matching Shoulder Stock he will go bonkers!!!

I didn't get the catalog this time, just the 6-page flyer...

They have a US Trials Holster, too...

sheepherder · 08-13-2011, 06:12 PM

Oops...Forgot the CC...

CAP Black · 08-14-2011, 05:30 PM

That stock appears to me to be instead a holster stock. As it appears to have a hinged top and the thickness to house the pistol. I wonder where that concept came from? It looks a whole lot like the not so refined wooden holster that I picked up earlier in the year.
Jack

cirelaw · 08-14-2011, 06:35 PM

Were the holsters issued the sames as those issued with the 1000 test pieces?

sheepherder · 08-14-2011, 06:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CAP Black

That stock appears to me to be instead a holster stock. As it appears to have a hinged top and the thickness to house the pistol. I wonder where that concept came from? It looks a whole lot like the not so refined wooden holster that I picked up earlier in the year.
Jack

I've been wondering why Mauser added a bottle opener to the front of the slide/frame...

MrSmith · 08-28-2011, 10:37 PM

There was a show on tv a few months ago that showed this Cartridge Counter Luger

08-12-2011, 01:02 PM	#1
Hugo Borchardt User Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Tennessee Posts: 370 Thanks: 338 Thanked 131 Times in 47 Posts	RIA 1902 Cartridge Counter w stamped holster Got my color RIA Sept auction catalog in the mail today: http://www.rockislandauction.com/vie...id/53/lid/3127 What do we think of this one? If it is legit, I think the stamp of the Ordnance Corps on the holster is extremely interesting. Think it will fetch 50k+ per the estimate? Clark __________________ My militaria collection is dedicated to the memory of my Grandfather, Marine Gunnery Sergeant Dave Hill, Jr., wounded in action at The Assault of the Second Marine Division on Betio Island, Tarawa Atoll, 20-23 November, 1943. http://www.tarawa1943.com/pages/casualties%20tarawa.htm

08-12-2011, 07:12 PM	#5
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,986 Thanks: 1,065 Thanked 5,088 Times in 1,674 Posts	Fifty of the 7.65 Lugers "in good condition" were returned in exchange for a like number of 9mm Cartridge Counters. The CC guns are in an entirely different serial number range than the 7.65mm guns, and had special machining to accommodate the cartridge counter magazine __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

08-13-2011, 06:12 PM	#10
sheepherder Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: ...on the 'ol Erie Canal... Posts: 8,181 Thanks: 1,398 Thanked 4,438 Times in 2,327 Posts	Oops...Forgot the CC... Attached Thumbnails __________________ I like my coffee the way I like my women... ...Cold and bitter...

08-28-2011, 10:37 PM	#14
MrSmith User Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Australia Posts: 10 Thanks: 5 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	There was a show on tv a few months ago that showed this Cartridge Counter Luger Attached Thumbnails

08-12-2011, 02:02 PM	#2
command450 User Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: West Michigan Posts: 38 Thanks: 16 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	it sure is a doll. I would think its worth it. How many are known to exist,today?

08-12-2011, 06:20 PM	#4
Mike B Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: South Louisiana Posts: 979 Thanks: 1 Thanked 271 Times in 99 Posts	"the Cartridge Counter model is nearly identical to the 1900 Model Test Luger, with the addition of the Powell Device." That is a quote from RIA. If 50 of the test Lugers were removed from service to be tried out with the larger caliber 9mm, were the barrels changed or did a seperate order go out for 50 more chambered for the 9mm? Mike

08-12-2011, 07:54 PM	#6
hgreer2 Banned Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 309 Thanks: 1 Thanked 29 Times in 20 Posts	Am I being too cynical here or are there as many fakes as originals ? Harry

08-14-2011, 05:30 PM	#11
CAP Black User Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Fairmont, WV Right here in Mountaineer country and God's country Posts: 767 Thanks: 100 Thanked 168 Times in 96 Posts	That stock appears to me to be instead a holster stock. As it appears to have a hinged top and the thickness to house the pistol. I wonder where that concept came from? It looks a whole lot like the not so refined wooden holster that I picked up earlier in the year. Jack

08-14-2011, 06:35 PM	#12
cirelaw Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: PORT ST LUCIE, FLORIDA Posts: 12,216 Thanks: 6,209 Thanked 4,133 Times in 2,173 Posts	Were the holsters issued the sames as those issued with the 1000 test pieces?