Important Luger Auction Soon!

Jasta2 · 07-26-2008, 10:23 PM

October 6 & 7, 2008 ( guess that's not all that soon!) This might be old news to you hardcore collectors. There will be a large mulit type firearm auction on the above dates, including the "Renowned Doug Smith Collection of Lugers" as the flyer says. Including the "rare" Cased Presentation Luger Carbine to Hugo Borchardt from Georg Luger! How many you guys going to bid on this one? What will this baby sell for? $20K or maybe more! Alot more! Auction to be held by James D. Julia Inc. out of Fairfield, Maine. web www.juliaauctions.com For blackpowder revolver fans, the auction will also include the finest known Colt Walker revolver "A Company 210" From what I have seen of original Colt Walkers, this one must go for $50k+ Just thought this might be of intrest to the forum. GET YOU BIDS IN SOON FOR THAT CASED CARBINE!! What you guys think this prize will actully sell for?

Bill

RGMCE · 07-28-2008, 07:23 PM

I would estimate $80-100,000 dollars in spite of the velvet edges of case recesses showing no apparent wear after 90-100 years. The gun is the important thing. Dick McE.

drbuster · 07-28-2008, 09:20 PM

Bill, where have you been? Well documented presentation lugers such as the Hugo Borchardt carbine is expected to go for "over $100K" and who knows if the bidding becomes frantic. The Walker Colt (probably the finest in existance) is expected to fetch in the neighborhood of $1000K!! Yes that is is one million dollars! This has been told to me by experienced long time Colt collectors. This Colt has documentation back to the Texas Rangers.

alvin · 07-28-2008, 10:11 PM

Hopefully, they would also carry a few much cheaper ones

Just login to the site, no online catalog yet.

A person coming from Mars has this question: who is Walker Colt? Thanks.

====

Never mind. Found it in wiki. hmmm.....

Navy · 07-29-2008, 07:23 AM

I have seen only a fraction of Doug's vast and superb collection-the man had to buy a defunct bank to get a vault bbig enough to house it-but I can assure you that this auction will provide access to some of the finest conditioned rare guns in the world. Get a second mortage, boys, because these opportunities are truly once in a lifetime.

Tom A

raygun · 07-29-2008, 07:53 AM

Not for us mere mortals ! I could never justify spending more than the value of a house on a firearm . Those who buy these things will probably never see them anyhow -- they will spend all their time locked up in vaults.

Some of them probably belong in museums so we can all enjoy them .

RGMCE · 07-29-2008, 10:45 PM

----with the proviso that the curator label the exhibit with appropriate information unlike the ambiguous Flintlock described in the Off Topic section. Unfortunately many will never see daylight, residing in vaults like garaged Bugatti's, Ferrari GTO's,etc. at the urging of their insurance carrier. Best regards, Dick

Hugh · 07-30-2008, 02:19 AM

And to whet your appetite for that one is Rock Island's auction Sept 6,7,8 with lots of Lugers, Broomhandles, P38's, Colts, Winchester's and many, many more!

Imperial Arms · 07-30-2008, 12:43 PM

If I remember correctly, the Hugo Borchardt presentation carbine was sold in the Butterfield auction in the mid 1990's and it had fetched between $55k-$63k which was considered a low price for such a marvellous item. In those days, a cased presentation carbine was valued between $80k-$100k. A possible explanation for the low result could have been the suspicion or nervousness that collectors had with this Luger carbine being a presentation from Georg Luger to Hugo Borchardt who had sour feelings against each other.

If this 'GL' presentation carbine was not a presentation/gift from Georg Luger to Hugo Borchardt, are the initials for somebody else, or could it have been a gift from Loewe to Borchardt who was the CEO of DWM?

A question I have always had in my mind is: are the initials 'GL' for Georg Luger or a member of the Loewe family who worked in the DWM factory? Was Georg Luger authorized as a sales manager/director to add his initials on a Luger pistol, and why did 'GL' Lugers 'disappear' after 1910 while he continued to work in the DWM factory until 1918 or so?

It will be interesting to observe the hammer price for this carbine plus many more items from the Doug Smith collection.

Albert

RGMCE · 07-30-2008, 05:49 PM

For what it's worth, founder Ludwig Loewe {1837-86}had a son named George. Whether he had a position at DWM is unknown. For additional family details see 'Isidor Loewe' @ Google search under Claims Resolution Tribunal. A different 'GL'?? Interesting,----very interesting. Should be pursued further. Dick McE.

Imperial Arms · 07-31-2008, 12:48 AM

Thank you Dick for the information regarding Ludwig, Isidor and George Loewe. After readings some articles on the Internet, I understand that Isidor (ludwig's brother) took over management of the company after Ludwig died in 1886, however, Ludwig's son George also worked in the DWM factory in upper management and, therefore, it is possible that the 'GL' hallmark on test and presentation Lugers is George's initials and not necessarily Georg Luger.

I was also informed by a prominent Luger collector that there was communication and business talks between H. Tauscher and George Loewe, and I believe that George Loewe played an important role in the DWM factory including the approval of test and presentation Lugers.

Albert

RGMCE · 07-31-2008, 05:56 AM

Another interesting coincidence is Isidor, (1848-1910) died the same year the 'GL' marked Lugers ceased as mentioned in your earlier thread. " The game's afoot !" as Sherlock Holmes said. Like many historically oriented collectors , I would 'sell my grandmother' to read those long gone DWM archives ! Good hunting, Albert. Best regards, Dick McE.

RGMCE · 08-04-2008, 09:31 AM

As a footnote, I would suggest comparing the 'GL' monogram on this carbine with other well documented presentation guns. Ego's being what they are, I would expect a George Loewe 'GL' to differ from Georg Luger's. Unfortunately the Julia presentation didn't include this view. Perhaps if you and I chip in about $60 K each we can find out. Game?! Cheers, Dick

alvin · 08-07-2008, 09:41 PM

See it. The best 6-shot Mauser that I've ever seen!! Probably not the best that Albert has seen, but the best that I've seen so far. Whew. This thing must cost 'mortgage'

Imperial Arms · 08-07-2008, 11:37 PM

There exists correspondence from DWM to A. F. Stoeger in the form of a telegram dated between Feb-March 1922 showing that George Loewe and Max Kosegarten were directors at the DWM factory. I am curious to find out when George Loewe was born and when he joined DWM management. I have a second belief that the 'GL' hallmark on presentation and test Lugers is that of George Loewe and not necessarily Georg Luger even though Georg had some movement in the DWM factory. It is possible that an inventor working in a factory would not be authorized to hand out presentation pistols to any person he so wishes. I suppose that these pistols had to be approved from a person at a higher level of management.

It is known that Georg Luger and Hugo Borchardt had a strained relationship in the DWM factory, so why would Georg present a special carbine to a person who disliked him? Instead it is likely that the presentation carbine was given by George Loewe to Hugo and hallmarked with his initials 'GL'. I notice that the plack on the case only has a 'B' character, and if the the chamber happens to have the initials 'HB', who is to say that it is Hugo Borchardt when there is no documentary proof?

Alvin, to my surprise, the 6-Shot Cone Hammer was purchased from a collector in Argentina in the past year. I reckon that it may fetch around the figure of $16k-$17k. Many years ago, I remember a similar 6-Shot fetching around $25k, but the market today with Broomhandles is unpredictable. I notice that the Standard 10-Shot Cone Hammers are more in demand even though the 6-Shot is a rarer model.

Albert

alvin · 08-07-2008, 11:48 PM

Albert -- Thanks for the info. What's your estimation of value on that vL&D slabside?

Imperial Arms · 08-08-2008, 02:46 AM

Alvin - Based on the image, the VL&D Flatside appears in very good condition. It is harder to find a Flatside in very condition as compared to a Cone Hammer in the same condition.

I reckon that the Flatside will fetch between $8-$10k assuming that the stock is matching to the pistol.

Cheers,
Albert

Mike Jones · 08-08-2008, 11:57 AM

Albert,

I have photos of this Carbine when it first turned up. It only has a "B" in gold over the chamber with a pattern around it. As far as I know there was no documentation as to the owner at that time. But that may have chaged by now.

Regards,
Mike Jones

Imperial Arms · 08-09-2008, 03:04 AM

Hello Mike,

Thanks for the information regarding the gold initial on the chamber of the presentation carbine. When this carbine was auctioned by Butterfield in the mid-1990's, I do not know what made the seller or the auction house believe that it was a presentation to Hugo Borchardt. I doubt that it was a presentation to him, instead it was possibly a special order by a wealthy individual of a big American company through Hans Tauscher during the early 1900's. For example, the 'GL' presentation carbine serial #9112C with the chamber marking 'HCR - 1903' was a gift from R. J. Reynolds (tobacco company) to his chief financial officer Henry Caldwell Roan. I have had the opportunity to examine this carbine in my hands which has better wood and a higher polished finished than compared to a standard Luger carbine.

Albert

Mike Jones · 08-09-2008, 01:11 PM

Albert,

When Lee Ingalls offer this gun sn 9106C in 1981. He said information was forthcoming that the gun belonged to Hugo Borchardt. That is more then likely how this got started. But who knows maybe he did get the documentation.

I do agree with the with the special order like you stated.

I also have handled the HCR Gun and all of these Carbines I have seen in this series do have outstanding finish.

Regards,
Mike

07-26-2008, 10:23 PM	#1
Jasta2 User Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Lakeland, Fl. Posts: 514 Thanks: 349 Thanked 101 Times in 52 Posts	Important Luger Auction Soon! October 6 & 7, 2008 ( guess that's not all that soon!) This might be old news to you hardcore collectors. There will be a large mulit type firearm auction on the above dates, including the "Renowned Doug Smith Collection of Lugers" as the flyer says. Including the "rare" Cased Presentation Luger Carbine to Hugo Borchardt from Georg Luger! How many you guys going to bid on this one? What will this baby sell for? $20K or maybe more! Alot more! Auction to be held by James D. Julia Inc. out of Fairfield, Maine. web www.juliaauctions.com For blackpowder revolver fans, the auction will also include the finest known Colt Walker revolver "A Company 210" From what I have seen of original Colt Walkers, this one must go for $50k+ Just thought this might be of intrest to the forum. GET YOU BIDS IN SOON FOR THAT CASED CARBINE!! What you guys think this prize will actully sell for? Bill

07-29-2008, 07:53 AM	#6
raygun User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: brisbane Posts: 150 Thanks: 3 Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts	Not for us mere mortals ! I could never justify spending more than the value of a house on a firearm . Those who buy these things will probably never see them anyhow -- they will spend all their time locked up in vaults. Some of them probably belong in museums so we can all enjoy them . __________________ arma tuentur pacem

07-30-2008, 02:19 AM	#8
Hugh RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Southeast Texas Swamp Posts: 2,460 Thanks: 2 Thanked 165 Times in 64 Posts	And to whet your appetite for that one is Rock Island's auction Sept 6,7,8 with lots of Lugers, Broomhandles, P38's, Colts, Winchester's and many, many more! __________________ *TRUMP FOR PREZ IN '20!*

07-28-2008, 07:23 PM	#2
RGMCE User Join Date: May 2008 Location: Richmond, VA Posts: 30 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I would estimate $80-100,000 dollars in spite of the velvet edges of case recesses showing no apparent wear after 90-100 years. The gun is the important thing. Dick McE.

07-28-2008, 09:20 PM	#3
drbuster User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: San Mateo, California Posts: 1,432 Thanks: 2 Thanked 71 Times in 56 Posts	Bill, where have you been? Well documented presentation lugers such as the Hugo Borchardt carbine is expected to go for "over $100K" and who knows if the bidding becomes frantic. The Walker Colt (probably the finest in existance) is expected to fetch in the neighborhood of $1000K!! Yes that is is one million dollars! This has been told to me by experienced long time Colt collectors. This Colt has documentation back to the Texas Rangers.

07-28-2008, 10:11 PM	#4
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	Hopefully, they would also carry a few much cheaper ones Just login to the site, no online catalog yet. A person coming from Mars has this question: who is Walker Colt? Thanks. ==== Never mind. Found it in wiki. hmmm.....

07-29-2008, 07:23 AM	#5
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	I have seen only a fraction of Doug's vast and superb collection-the man had to buy a defunct bank to get a vault bbig enough to house it-but I can assure you that this auction will provide access to some of the finest conditioned rare guns in the world. Get a second mortage, boys, because these opportunities are truly once in a lifetime. Tom A

07-29-2008, 10:45 PM	#7
RGMCE User Join Date: May 2008 Location: Richmond, VA Posts: 30 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	----with the proviso that the curator label the exhibit with appropriate information unlike the ambiguous Flintlock described in the Off Topic section. Unfortunately many will never see daylight, residing in vaults like garaged Bugatti's, Ferrari GTO's,etc. at the urging of their insurance carrier. Best regards, Dick

07-30-2008, 12:43 PM	#9
Imperial Arms Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Malta, EU Posts: 579 Thanks: 0 Thanked 7 Times in 7 Posts	If I remember correctly, the Hugo Borchardt presentation carbine was sold in the Butterfield auction in the mid 1990's and it had fetched between $55k-$63k which was considered a low price for such a marvellous item. In those days, a cased presentation carbine was valued between $80k-$100k. A possible explanation for the low result could have been the suspicion or nervousness that collectors had with this Luger carbine being a presentation from Georg Luger to Hugo Borchardt who had sour feelings against each other. If this 'GL' presentation carbine was not a presentation/gift from Georg Luger to Hugo Borchardt, are the initials for somebody else, or could it have been a gift from Loewe to Borchardt who was the CEO of DWM? A question I have always had in my mind is: are the initials 'GL' for Georg Luger or a member of the Loewe family who worked in the DWM factory? Was Georg Luger authorized as a sales manager/director to add his initials on a Luger pistol, and why did 'GL' Lugers 'disappear' after 1910 while he continued to work in the DWM factory until 1918 or so? It will be interesting to observe the hammer price for this carbine plus many more items from the Doug Smith collection. Albert

07-30-2008, 05:49 PM	#10
RGMCE User Join Date: May 2008 Location: Richmond, VA Posts: 30 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	For what it's worth, founder Ludwig Loewe {1837-86}had a son named George. Whether he had a position at DWM is unknown. For additional family details see 'Isidor Loewe' @ Google search under Claims Resolution Tribunal. A different 'GL'?? Interesting,----very interesting. Should be pursued further. Dick McE.

07-31-2008, 12:48 AM	#11
Imperial Arms Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Malta, EU Posts: 579 Thanks: 0 Thanked 7 Times in 7 Posts	Thank you Dick for the information regarding Ludwig, Isidor and George Loewe. After readings some articles on the Internet, I understand that Isidor (ludwig's brother) took over management of the company after Ludwig died in 1886, however, Ludwig's son George also worked in the DWM factory in upper management and, therefore, it is possible that the 'GL' hallmark on test and presentation Lugers is George's initials and not necessarily Georg Luger. I was also informed by a prominent Luger collector that there was communication and business talks between H. Tauscher and George Loewe, and I believe that George Loewe played an important role in the DWM factory including the approval of test and presentation Lugers. Albert

07-31-2008, 05:56 AM	#12
RGMCE User Join Date: May 2008 Location: Richmond, VA Posts: 30 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Another interesting coincidence is Isidor, (1848-1910) died the same year the 'GL' marked Lugers ceased as mentioned in your earlier thread. " The game's afoot !" as Sherlock Holmes said. Like many historically oriented collectors , I would 'sell my grandmother' to read those long gone DWM archives ! Good hunting, Albert. Best regards, Dick McE.

08-04-2008, 09:31 AM	#13
RGMCE User Join Date: May 2008 Location: Richmond, VA Posts: 30 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	As a footnote, I would suggest comparing the 'GL' monogram on this carbine with other well documented presentation guns. Ego's being what they are, I would expect a George Loewe 'GL' to differ from Georg Luger's. Unfortunately the Julia presentation didn't include this view. Perhaps if you and I chip in about $60 K each we can find out. Game?! Cheers, Dick

08-07-2008, 09:41 PM	#14
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	See it. The best 6-shot Mauser that I've ever seen!! Probably not the best that Albert has seen, but the best that I've seen so far. Whew. This thing must cost 'mortgage'

08-07-2008, 11:37 PM	#15
Imperial Arms Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Malta, EU Posts: 579 Thanks: 0 Thanked 7 Times in 7 Posts	There exists correspondence from DWM to A. F. Stoeger in the form of a telegram dated between Feb-March 1922 showing that George Loewe and Max Kosegarten were directors at the DWM factory. I am curious to find out when George Loewe was born and when he joined DWM management. I have a second belief that the 'GL' hallmark on presentation and test Lugers is that of George Loewe and not necessarily Georg Luger even though Georg had some movement in the DWM factory. It is possible that an inventor working in a factory would not be authorized to hand out presentation pistols to any person he so wishes. I suppose that these pistols had to be approved from a person at a higher level of management. It is known that Georg Luger and Hugo Borchardt had a strained relationship in the DWM factory, so why would Georg present a special carbine to a person who disliked him? Instead it is likely that the presentation carbine was given by George Loewe to Hugo and hallmarked with his initials 'GL'. I notice that the plack on the case only has a 'B' character, and if the the chamber happens to have the initials 'HB', who is to say that it is Hugo Borchardt when there is no documentary proof? Alvin, to my surprise, the 6-Shot Cone Hammer was purchased from a collector in Argentina in the past year. I reckon that it may fetch around the figure of $16k-$17k. Many years ago, I remember a similar 6-Shot fetching around $25k, but the market today with Broomhandles is unpredictable. I notice that the Standard 10-Shot Cone Hammers are more in demand even though the 6-Shot is a rarer model. Albert

08-07-2008, 11:48 PM	#16
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	Albert -- Thanks for the info. What's your estimation of value on that vL&D slabside?

08-08-2008, 02:46 AM	#17
Imperial Arms Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Malta, EU Posts: 579 Thanks: 0 Thanked 7 Times in 7 Posts	Alvin - Based on the image, the VL&D Flatside appears in very good condition. It is harder to find a Flatside in very condition as compared to a Cone Hammer in the same condition. I reckon that the Flatside will fetch between $8-$10k assuming that the stock is matching to the pistol. Cheers, Albert

08-08-2008, 11:57 AM	#18
Mike Jones User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Torrance, Calif. Posts: 67 Thanks: 10 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	Albert, I have photos of this Carbine when it first turned up. It only has a "B" in gold over the chamber with a pattern around it. As far as I know there was no documentation as to the owner at that time. But that may have chaged by now. Regards, Mike Jones

08-09-2008, 03:04 AM	#19
Imperial Arms Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Malta, EU Posts: 579 Thanks: 0 Thanked 7 Times in 7 Posts	Hello Mike, Thanks for the information regarding the gold initial on the chamber of the presentation carbine. When this carbine was auctioned by Butterfield in the mid-1990's, I do not know what made the seller or the auction house believe that it was a presentation to Hugo Borchardt. I doubt that it was a presentation to him, instead it was possibly a special order by a wealthy individual of a big American company through Hans Tauscher during the early 1900's. For example, the 'GL' presentation carbine serial #9112C with the chamber marking 'HCR - 1903' was a gift from R. J. Reynolds (tobacco company) to his chief financial officer Henry Caldwell Roan. I have had the opportunity to examine this carbine in my hands which has better wood and a higher polished finished than compared to a standard Luger carbine. Albert

08-09-2008, 01:11 PM	#20
Mike Jones User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Torrance, Calif. Posts: 67 Thanks: 10 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	Albert, When Lee Ingalls offer this gun sn 9106C in 1981. He said information was forthcoming that the gun belonged to Hugo Borchardt. That is more then likely how this got started. But who knows maybe he did get the documentation. I do agree with the with the special order like you stated. I also have handled the HCR Gun and all of these Carbines I have seen in this series do have outstanding finish. Regards, Mike