1923 AE

maddog350gt · 11-22-2004, 09:23 PM

John D. · 11-22-2004, 09:28 PM

Hi Bob..!!!

I just edited your post so that all your pictures showed up - and...

TERRIFIC pictures!!!! Thanks for posting them!

John D.

maddog350gt · 11-23-2004, 02:36 AM

John,
I don't know what happend to the text I supplied with the pictures? This was my first post here on this form so I guess I did it wrong. I will try to post the text below.

Hi,
I wanted to post some pictures of a recent acquisition and ask for some help in understanding this variation. Many of you probably saw this luger on one of the internet gun auction sites a few weeks ago. I purchased it and paid more than I was initially planing. I almost sent it back after I receive it because the finish is not what I expected. I think someone may have wiped it down with cold blue to try to cover a faded finish but I am not sure, it does not appear to have been buffed. I kept it because it is an unusual gun. It is a 1923 DWM commercial, safe and loaded, in 30 Luger caliber. Serial number is 90414 which is in the correct range for this model. What is unusual is that it is an American Eagle. In Lugers at Random page 202, Kenyon remarks in his description of the chamber markings Ã¢??A few have been reported with the American Eagle crest.Ã¢?Â This is the only reference I can find for a 1923 commercial that is an American Eagle (other than the Stoger American Eagles). In examining the gun it looks to have been changed from a 9 mm to 30 luger, probably by DWM to comply with the armistice treaty. The receiver has had an insert installed to reduce the diameter to 30 Luger. The witness marks between the barrel and the receiver donÃ¢??t quite line up, making it appear that the barrel has been changed. The front of the frame where the serial number is stamped looks to have been ground down to remove an earlier serial number. There is a definite transition line from the grinding across the front of the gun. There is a crown N proof on the bottom of the barrel along with the serial number, however there is not a crown/N on the left side of the receiver as I would expect. There is a small rub mark where the proof should be but it doesnÃ¢??t appear to be deep enough to have removed a proof stamp. The crown N on the center toggle link is the only stamp that looks like it has been buffed, the proof is there but it is shallow and the edges are rounded not sharp. The DWM logo on the top of this link does not look buffed.
I canÃ¢??t decide if I have purchased an expensive curio, a hidden treasure, or something in between. I would be appreciative of any light the people here could shed on this Luger. Especially if any of you have a similar model or have seen one. If you know of another please pass my name and e-mail (bobmaddix@comcast.net) on to the owner and ask him to contact me. I would like to compare features and markings. Anyone have an idea how many of these may be out there? Maybe these are more common than I think!

Thanks for your help;
Bob Maddix

Edward Tinker · 11-23-2004, 08:41 PM

Bob, there was text earlier in the day!!

I was on here briefly at lunch, and saw it

Interesting AE

I bet most people don't know where Washougal is! But I have driven past it if I remember correctly!

Ed

Dwight Gruber · 11-23-2004, 09:28 PM

Hi, Bob,

Got a picture of the witness mark? Just because it doesn't line up, doesn't mean it is a rebarrel.

Look at the front of the frame with the gun assembled. If the frame front has been ground back the front of the receiver will protrude a bit; if it is smooth, thats the way it was made.

This is a very interesting gun, bring it by the next Portland gun show for show&tell.

--Dwight

maddog350gt · 11-24-2004, 02:37 AM

Dwight,

I was back at the show on Sunday last weekend and brought it in to show you if you came by. I'll bring it again next month.

The receiver doesn't protrude past the front of the frame. In fact it looks very flush. I don't think it's been worked on too much but the finish doesn't look quite right. As I stated it may have been wiped with cold blue, and portions could have been lightly sanded to remove some freckling, I am not sure.

Ed
It would truly amaze me if anyone in Colorado knew where Washougal was. Three quarters of the people in Portland don't know where it is and it's only 10 miles away. I imagine that 90% of the people in Washington wouldn't have a clue. Let me know the next time you drive by, you can stop look at some Lugers, and enjoy some hospitality before you travel on.

Thanks,
Bob Maddix

SteveM · 11-24-2004, 08:12 PM

Bob,

I was also interested in this; the seller never responded to my questions so I didn't bid. What I was particularly interested in was if it was a Safe and Loaded AE. Thanks for the pics.

maddog350gt · 11-25-2004, 02:04 AM

Steve M.
I think I sent a message to them as well that didn't get answered, but there listing had a phone number and I called them. It was a gun shop in Redding CA and I think the owner was out (why the e-mails didn't get answered), but the guy who talked to me on the phone got the gun out of the safe and went over it with me. I was hoping to get it for the minimum bid but someone else bid on it and I had to go a little more. I am still not sure it was a good buy, but it does appear to be unusual. I posted almost the same write-up on the "other Luger site" as well as here, but so far no one has come forward with info on another AE in the 23 commercial series. Again I don't know if that's good or bad. Sometimes things are too unique to generate widespread interest. Have you seen any others in your Luger travels?

Thanks,
Bob Maddix

SteveM · 11-25-2004, 07:36 PM

Bob,

No, I haven't seen another like this one. That is why it caught my eye.

SteveM

maddog350gt · 12-08-2004, 03:54 AM

Hi all, I just wanted to clear up a mistake I made in my original post. I said the chamber of the luger had been sleeved to reduce it to 30 caliber from 9 mm. Of course this is incorrect as the case diameters at the base are the same. I miss took where the barrel comes through the receiver and creates a mating line with the receiver for an insert. Sorry for the confusion. If I had thought about it for a few minutes I would have realized my mistake. Thanks to Dwight for setting me straight. Still looking for any information on this variation, my thoughts are they must be relatively rare. I would still be interested if anyone knows of another one.

11-22-2004, 09:23 PM	#1
maddog350gt User Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Washougal WA Posts: 170 Thanks: 0 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	1923 AE

11-23-2004, 08:41 PM	#4
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,930 Thanks: 2,030 Thanked 4,527 Times in 2,090 Posts	Bob, there was text earlier in the day!! I was on here briefly at lunch, and saw it Interesting AE I bet most people don't know where Washougal is! But I have driven past it if I remember correctly! Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

11-22-2004, 09:28 PM	#2
John D. Administrator & Site Owner LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: A Little NE of Somewhere... Posts: 2,651 Thanks: 477 Thanked 515 Times in 128 Posts	Hi Bob..!!! I just edited your post so that all your pictures showed up - and... TERRIFIC pictures!!!! Thanks for posting them! John D.

11-23-2004, 02:36 AM	#3
maddog350gt User Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Washougal WA Posts: 170 Thanks: 0 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	John, I don't know what happend to the text I supplied with the pictures? This was my first post here on this form so I guess I did it wrong. I will try to post the text below. Hi, I wanted to post some pictures of a recent acquisition and ask for some help in understanding this variation. Many of you probably saw this luger on one of the internet gun auction sites a few weeks ago. I purchased it and paid more than I was initially planing. I almost sent it back after I receive it because the finish is not what I expected. I think someone may have wiped it down with cold blue to try to cover a faded finish but I am not sure, it does not appear to have been buffed. I kept it because it is an unusual gun. It is a 1923 DWM commercial, safe and loaded, in 30 Luger caliber. Serial number is 90414 which is in the correct range for this model. What is unusual is that it is an American Eagle. In Lugers at Random page 202, Kenyon remarks in his description of the chamber markings Ã¢??A few have been reported with the American Eagle crest.Ã¢?Â This is the only reference I can find for a 1923 commercial that is an American Eagle (other than the Stoger American Eagles). In examining the gun it looks to have been changed from a 9 mm to 30 luger, probably by DWM to comply with the armistice treaty. The receiver has had an insert installed to reduce the diameter to 30 Luger. The witness marks between the barrel and the receiver donÃ¢??t quite line up, making it appear that the barrel has been changed. The front of the frame where the serial number is stamped looks to have been ground down to remove an earlier serial number. There is a definite transition line from the grinding across the front of the gun. There is a crown N proof on the bottom of the barrel along with the serial number, however there is not a crown/N on the left side of the receiver as I would expect. There is a small rub mark where the proof should be but it doesnÃ¢??t appear to be deep enough to have removed a proof stamp. The crown N on the center toggle link is the only stamp that looks like it has been buffed, the proof is there but it is shallow and the edges are rounded not sharp. The DWM logo on the top of this link does not look buffed. I canÃ¢??t decide if I have purchased an expensive curio, a hidden treasure, or something in between. I would be appreciative of any light the people here could shed on this Luger. Especially if any of you have a similar model or have seen one. If you know of another please pass my name and e-mail (bobmaddix@comcast.net) on to the owner and ask him to contact me. I would like to compare features and markings. Anyone have an idea how many of these may be out there? Maybe these are more common than I think! Thanks for your help; Bob Maddix

11-23-2004, 09:28 PM	#5
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,900 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,313 Times in 430 Posts	Hi, Bob, Got a picture of the witness mark? Just because it doesn't line up, doesn't mean it is a rebarrel. Look at the front of the frame with the gun assembled. If the frame front has been ground back the front of the receiver will protrude a bit; if it is smooth, thats the way it was made. This is a very interesting gun, bring it by the next Portland gun show for show&tell. --Dwight

11-24-2004, 02:37 AM	#6
maddog350gt User Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Washougal WA Posts: 170 Thanks: 0 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	Dwight, I was back at the show on Sunday last weekend and brought it in to show you if you came by. I'll bring it again next month. The receiver doesn't protrude past the front of the frame. In fact it looks very flush. I don't think it's been worked on too much but the finish doesn't look quite right. As I stated it may have been wiped with cold blue, and portions could have been lightly sanded to remove some freckling, I am not sure. Ed It would truly amaze me if anyone in Colorado knew where Washougal was. Three quarters of the people in Portland don't know where it is and it's only 10 miles away. I imagine that 90% of the people in Washington wouldn't have a clue. Let me know the next time you drive by, you can stop look at some Lugers, and enjoy some hospitality before you travel on. Thanks, Bob Maddix

11-24-2004, 08:12 PM	#7
SteveM User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Texas Posts: 1,016 Thanks: 94 Thanked 275 Times in 137 Posts	Bob, I was also interested in this; the seller never responded to my questions so I didn't bid. What I was particularly interested in was if it was a Safe and Loaded AE. Thanks for the pics.

11-25-2004, 02:04 AM	#8
maddog350gt User Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Washougal WA Posts: 170 Thanks: 0 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	Steve M. I think I sent a message to them as well that didn't get answered, but there listing had a phone number and I called them. It was a gun shop in Redding CA and I think the owner was out (why the e-mails didn't get answered), but the guy who talked to me on the phone got the gun out of the safe and went over it with me. I was hoping to get it for the minimum bid but someone else bid on it and I had to go a little more. I am still not sure it was a good buy, but it does appear to be unusual. I posted almost the same write-up on the "other Luger site" as well as here, but so far no one has come forward with info on another AE in the 23 commercial series. Again I don't know if that's good or bad. Sometimes things are too unique to generate widespread interest. Have you seen any others in your Luger travels? Thanks, Bob Maddix

11-25-2004, 07:36 PM	#9
SteveM User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Texas Posts: 1,016 Thanks: 94 Thanked 275 Times in 137 Posts	Bob, No, I haven't seen another like this one. That is why it caught my eye. SteveM

12-08-2004, 03:54 AM	#10
maddog350gt User Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Washougal WA Posts: 170 Thanks: 0 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	Hi all, I just wanted to clear up a mistake I made in my original post. I said the chamber of the luger had been sleeved to reduce it to 30 caliber from 9 mm. Of course this is incorrect as the case diameters at the base are the same. I miss took where the barrel comes through the receiver and creates a mating line with the receiver for an insert. Sorry for the confusion. If I had thought about it for a few minutes I would have realized my mistake. Thanks to Dwight for setting me straight. Still looking for any information on this variation, my thoughts are they must be relatively rare. I would still be interested if anyone knows of another one.