Luger Carbine (Erfurt)

[troy]

I have a Luger Carbine from the Erfurt armory.

The Luger does not have a safety at the

grip location so I am assuming it is a

1906 new modal. Where is the best place

to get specific information on this make

of Luger Carbine.



http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/tdc_lug_car.JPG

[Johnny Peppers]

Troy,

The grip safety was continued with the 1906 model, but was dropped with the 1908 model. The toggle knobs are from a 1900 model, and the rear sight is from an LP08. From your picture I would say that your pistol has been made up from odds and ends of other pistols. All the Luger Carbines were commercial models, and Erfurt was a government arms factory. Your Erfurt marked toggle came from a military P08.

The Erfurt Armory was a government/military factory that did not make commercial sporting arms to my knowledge. Perhaps someone can correct me but it would seem this would be a composite gun that incorporated an Erfurt toggle. General information about carbines can be found in Kenyon's book Lugers at Random, and other books that cover non-military lugers.

[troy]

That explains some of my confusion with

the markings. What little info I had

the the Erfurt marking did not seem to

go with the standard Carbine. My father

picked it up back in the 70's for a case

of beer. Sounds like that is what it

is worth....Thanks

[Lonnie Zimmerman]

If the forend is authentic, it is worth a WHOLE LOT more than a case of beer! Have you shot it?


Lonnie

I concur with Lonnie; worth a whole lot more even if made from parts! The carbines are pretty neat and at least you have something that sure looks a lot like one even though it is made from parts!

See if you can get ahold of a book on Lugers, Kenyon or some other that shows what a carbine looks like with the forend removed.

Good Luck!

[Ron Wood]

I just looked at the picture and I am impressed. Your father did well for his case of beer! The carbine is the product of a fairly talented gunsmith. It is a total fabrication. The rear toggle link is from a 1900 model that has been married up with the forward toggle link and breechblock of an Erfurt military, not an easy task. The rear sight is not from an artillery, but one that has been fabricated from scratch. The front sight may have been hand made or adapted from some other firearm. I can't tell from the photo the origin of the frame, but one can assume from the lack of a grip safety that it is not an original carbine with the forearm attachment, so that entails a bit of skill to create that attachment. Does the barrel have a lug that acts upon an auxiliary recoil spring in the wooden forearm? If so, that is one more nifty achievement by that unknown gunsmith. What you have is what amounts to a custom Luger, and I would really like to see some additional detailed photos of the rear sight, the thumb safety, and the forearm attachment wedge and escutcheon. Also, given that it has a 1900 rear toggle link, does it have an operable toggle lock in the right toggle knob with the corresponding catch on the frame? It is not a â??collectorâ?� carbine, but it is one slick piece of machinery!!

Thanks for sharing

[troy]

As far as I know, since it has been in

my fathers care and now in mine it has

not been fired. All the actions seems

to be really smooth and tight.

On top of the barrel and in front of the rear

sight there is a stamp that says "CONV. BY C. MILLER"

[troy]

Ron,

I have attached a link to a pic with multible

shots of the areas in question. I do know that

when the gun is cocked the barrel slides smoothly

inside the wooden fore arm.


Troy



http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/multiPic.jpg

[Marvin]

Troy,


This may be a built-up Carbine, but it sure is nice! After seeing the other photos you put on the Forum, this looks like a candidate for one of Thor's restorations. When you get it back it would look like new and a real eye catcher. Do you have the stock for it?


Marvin

[troy]

Marvin,


I do not have a stock, what you see

is what I have. Thanks..


Troy

[John Sabato]

...and a strong one!


The photo I have attached is of a genuine Luger carbine that is on one of the auction sites currently for several thousand dollars...


You have a VERY UNUSUAL and totally CUSTOM gunsmith modified Luger. After examination of all the photos you made available, here is what I have been able to determine:


The grip frame is from a Mauser made Luger, probably 1941 or 42. (The P.08 on the flat of the left side is the evidence of this)


The forward toggle, as you are well aware, is from a standard Erfurt military Luger, likely of WW1 vintage.


The rear toggle is somewhat of a mystery, but is not from a model 1900, because it is a standard post-1908 toggle that has been machined to appear like the dished toggles on the 1900 (the knurling is not the type found on the dished toggles). It may even be the original Mauser rear toggle that has had the rear sight ground off and it probably came with the frame. It also has a screw showing from the top that would have no internal purpose that I can imagine. My guess is that the custom gunsmith that built this gun from parts first tried a toggle-mounted adjustable rear sight, and then decided against it, filling the mounting hole with a screw.


The front sight is either a complete custom sight base, or it was salvaged from some other sporting rifle. The front sight blade is a standard Marble blade that is available in different heights.


The rear sight appears to have been salvaged from a Mauser military rifle and adapted to the custom barrel by a screw/silver-solder - If you should decide to have this pistol refinished, be aware that hot-salt blue will dissolve the silver solder and the rear and possibly front sights will be removed in the process. I would recommend that you have your custom Luger carefully reblued by the Rust Blue method. See Ted Green for the best work around... He has a link in the LInks & Resources section on your left and posts here frequently...


The upper receiver or barrel extension has apparently been ground down so that whatever was stamped above the chamber is now gone. The serial number stamped here may have been done by the custom gunsmith... does the number match the number on the front of the frame??? If so, does the style of the numbers match the lower frame? Considering that I see other numbers on various parts of the pistol, I would guess not...


The forend appears to me to also be a custom item because the profile of the shape does not look like the original Luger carbines I have had the privilege of examining. I would be very interested to see some closeup photography of the disassembled pistol to see how the tang was made and attached to the Mauser frame, and also how the inside of the forend was constructed. It is not common to see a sling swivel mounted where yours appears - another custom touch.


I don't think you told us what caliber the gun is, but my guess is that it is 7.65 or .30 caliber Luger... because I would bet that the barrel was made from a standard .30 caliber rifle barrel... probably the front half that already had the front sight base attached.


your gun may not have any further historical value, but It looks like a GREAT shooter!


Just one caveat... but a very important one. Since your Luger is NOT an original Luger Carbine, it is not exempt from the National Firearms Act of 1934. This means that in order for you to use a stock with it, you will have to contact the ATF, and register the gun as a short barreled rifle (SBR) and pay a federal TAX of $200 for creating the SBR.


As long as you don't obtain a stock to mount to your Luger, the gun is only considered a long barreled pistol and is not subject to NFA registration and the tax.


I think it would be cool to shoot with or without a shoulder stock! If you decide you want to stock it, contact me via email... I may have a deal for you...


Best of luck with your new Luger... and visit the Lugerforum often. I invite you to open a user profile and have photos of your custom luger displayed in the owner's corner...


regards,


John Sabato




http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/Carbine03132002.jpg

[Ron Wood]

I would not recommend acquiring or fabricating a stock for your carbine. Since it did not start out life as a carbine, it is technically illegal to attach a stock. You would have to install a much longer barrel, as John Martz does for his carbines, in order to comply with BATF rules on stocked firearms. Enjoy it the way it is, for it is a neat gun. Thanks for the additional photos. Now the artisan that created it is now known (C. Miller). The Marble front sight shows up well in the photos. Sometime when you get the chance, you might want to push out the forearm retaining wedge and check out the inside of the forearm for that auxiliary spring assembly that I mentioned. That feature is found in the 1902 carbines, but was probably engineering overkill as I understand it was eliminated in the 1920 carbines (I donâ??t know for sure as I have never owned a 1920).

My two cents!


Cool.


I like how it looks, an original one would be nice, but I would love to have like this!


Ed

[John Sabato]

what I meant about the sling swivel is that it is not the type normally seen on the genuine carbines, the location is pretty close to where the real ones go... sorry that my brain must have been on vacation when I typed that paragraph..


-John

[Johnny Peppers]

John,

You are absolutely correct about someone modifying the toggle knobs to look like a 1900 model. The serial number on the front of the frame was probably obliterated when the forearm hanger was added. I still believe the rear sight is from an LP08 and has been adapted to another base.

[troy]

John,


Thank you for all the good information.

I do not know what the caliber is as of

yet but, I am going to find out. I

appreciate the pic of the real thing.


Troy

[Johnny Peppers]

Ron,

The 1902 Carbine needed the return spring in the forearm due to the flat mainspring not having enough tension to return the barrel to battery reliably. The 1920 carbine had the coil mainspring, and the return spring was no longer needed due to the extra strength of the coil spring.