Dirty Cryin' Shame

Johnny Peppers · 08-04-2001, 11:12 PM

Went to a small gunshow today, and a friend stopped by to show me an artillery Luger he had recently bought. The LP08 had had the stock lug almost completely ground off, and then the entire pistol had been reblued. The worst part was that it was a 1914 dated DWM which is considered by most to be the rarest of the WWI Lugers.

ViggoG · 08-04-2001, 11:28 PM

Johnny

would it be considered a bad thing if a Fine Relic were carefully restored and so marked as a display item .

Ita a shame that a rare piece should have to be discarded as little more than trash .

I understand that Museums do it ?

What are your thoughts ?

ViggoG

Big Norm · 08-04-2001, 11:41 PM

Oh WOW! that is a shame. But at one time, the BATF said that it had to be done to make the gun legal. Then there was once an article in a gun magazine that said that if the stock lug was removed the gun had a better balance in the grip. Then I heard if some southern sheriff geting ahold of a guys recovered from a robberys Luger. The sheriff removed the stock lug without asking permission or telling anybody before he did it. The the sheriff returned the Luger to the owner.

There is a guy in a local gun show in Michigan who has been trying to sell an artillery for forever. It had the lug removed too. He tried to weld a lug on it in hopes that he could sell it. I haven't seen the guy or the artillery for a long time so I don't know if he ever got rid of it.

I also cry a little when I see the barrel of an artillery or a navy sawed off. Bought a navy once that had that done to it. The frame and the receiver was beautiful original blue and great strawing. But someone put a new barrel on it. They did a good job renumbering the barrel. But the bluing on the barrel just was not the same. People with good eyes could tell the difference.

But you are talking about a chamber dated 1914 DWM artillery and that is different and makes me feel sad. There are many horror stories out there in the Luger world.

Big Norm

Johnny Peppers · 08-04-2001, 11:51 PM

Viggo,

The first thing that crossed my mind was having Ted restore the finish, but the stock lug was ground completely off, and from the looks of things it was done on a bench grinder. The area on either side of the stock lug is finished perfectly flat, so a round contour in this area is impossible by simply grinding. The stock lug could probably be rebuilt and remachined, but after a sizeable investment you would still have a rebuilt Luger.

Johnny Peppers · 08-04-2001, 11:58 PM

The 1914 chamber dated DWM LP08 is extremely rare, and a lot of large collections do not have one. I have never seen one come up for sale on the open market as they usually change hands from one collector to another.

ViggoG · 08-05-2001, 12:57 AM

But how many would love to have even a restored 1914 DWM

it looks to me as if there is still some value in restoring it if it is approprately marked .

ViggoG

Big Norm · 08-05-2001, 02:24 AM

Yah! A 1914 chamber dated artillery is very rare. This is one of those cases that I believe you should ignore the production numbers. Since this was the first artillery, there were probably many of them acquired by egotistical German officers at the beginning of the war and subsequently lost at the bottom of artillery craters, or trenches or at the bottom of the ocean. I am sure that many did not make it through the war.

Big Norm

08-05-2001, 09:03 AM

Big Norm, I beg to differ with your statement that this was the FIRST Artillery model. It is my understanding that the Government Arsenal at Erfurt made the first LPO8s, but since these were not coverered under DWM's licencing agreement with the Imperial Government for the P08, so DWM made them cease production, so that they could make them. Also, once WW1 started, I'm sure that Erfurt needed more space to make M98 rifles. Since so many phony 1914 DWM LPO8s have been made, it is probably a bad idea to try to restore a buffed reblued one missing the stock lug. If I saw it at a show, I'd probably dismiss it as another fake. Tom

Thor · 08-05-2001, 10:37 AM

I thought the rare Artillery was the 1914 ERFURT? ~Thor~

bill m · 08-05-2001, 12:58 PM

Ted,

For every 1914 DWM you see, you probably see 100 1914 Erfurts. The 1914 DWM Artillery model is extremely hard to find, and like JP stated, seldom if ever for sale, and usually bought from collections before they are ever offered for sale to the public.

BILL · 08-05-2001, 01:12 PM

The 1914 military DWM is more common than the 1914 Erfurt but the arty is most commonly seen (by me, anyway) made by DWM and stamped 1917. It could be just my experience. A nice 'set' would be a 1914 military and a 1914 artillery. Since the DWM arty is rare and the Erfurt military is not as common as a DWM, it makes the set even that much nicer if they are both by the same manufacturer. This could justify the restoration of the damaged 1914 DWM artillery.

Johnny Peppers · 08-05-2001, 02:11 PM

If you can believe production estimates there were more LP08's manufactured by DWM in 1917 than all other years combined. The 1914 dated DWM LP08 is known only into the early a suffix range, and with the most of production going to the 4" model, the 5000 figure from Still is probably quite high for the 1914 DWM LP08. Possibly Erfurt was assigned production of the majority of LP08's as Erfurt produced more of the LP08's than the 4" pistols in 1914.

08-05-2001, 02:21 PM

Hi,

Many years ago at the Baltimore gun show,I saw a 98+% Borchardt with matching stock that had been torched through in 4 different places. The grips and only some small parts were salvagable. The barrel was cut, next it was cut down through the chamber, then up through the trigger assembly, then down at the rear of the toggle. It was a horrible sight and I could only guess what kind of a Government nitwit would have done this desecration. It was a product of the same mentality/law which caused the artillery stock lug to be ground off.

Ciao,

Bill S. (ALFA2NINE@aol.com)

08-05-2001, 02:56 PM

I know someone with a 1914 DWM LP08 with matching serials on pistol, magazine, and stock. He also has the 1914 dated holster for it. It wasn't offered for sale, but how much do you think it would be worth? (Finish appears 90%-95%)

Daniel · 08-05-2001, 03:49 PM

Yep, a stock lug can be replaced I had it done on a long barrel 1920 Com'l and I know another one that was done by the same craftsman. I can't tell from an original maybe someone else could but not me. I'd buy that 1914 and replace that lug in a heartbeat and anybody could call it"restored "and I'd care less.

HÃ?Â¥kan Spuhr · 08-05-2001, 04:36 PM

Hi Viggo

Without considering if it's worth the truoble and money or not I can do the welding and the machining.

If you are seriusely interested buy the gun and ship it to Bar-Sto in California ( the pistolbarrelproducer) and he will send it over to me.

I don't do any rustbluing so that you have to take care of yourself.

But as always with all weldings it's impossible to guarantie that there will be no colordifferances.

The bluing can be perfect and a year after the bluing is different.

Regards HÃ?Â¥kan

http://www.vapensmedjan.com

Johnny Peppers · 08-05-2001, 04:48 PM

Dan,

I don't remember which auction it was, but recently an all matching Erfurt LP08 rig in what was suppose to be super condition sold for $11,000. While I don't believe that this one sale sets the market price, it does show what some people are willing to pay to acquire rare complete sets.

08-06-2001, 12:04 AM

I sure would consider having Gale Morgan take a crack at restoration. There was an artical on his restoration of a Japanese pistol years ago in the Gun Digest. He is expensive but good, probably make the Luger look like it just came out of Factory. Would be alright if it didn't get passed of as original.

Big Norm · 08-08-2001, 05:22 AM

Tom,

I have just quickly reviewed John Walthers book "The Luger Book" pg 149 thru 152 and and I don't think that the result really would confirm one way or the other about who was first. Both factories where scheduled to manufacture the LP-08's with Erfurt scheduled to manufactured most of them and Erfurt given priority. Erfurt was supposed to manufacture 75,000 and DWM 69,000 over a 5 year time frame. Not a big difference. Then the war got in the way and schedules changed. One 1915 Erfurt artillery has been authenticated.

Examining the serial numbers does not seem to help. Erfurt serial numbers are from 63 to 9448b with P-08's interspersed within that range. 1914 DWM serial numbers are 161 to 1995a. Not a big help.

Erfurt production is estimated at 23,000 while DWM 1914 LP-08's production is estimated at 5,000. Erfurt made all the barrels for all artilleries in all years and their proof marks are on the left hand side of the barrels.

I found John Walthers book to contain more information than either Jan Still's or "Lugers At Random". These three books are the only authorative books that I have at my disposal. But if you have someone else to quote then I am sure that Jerry Peters, who is a friend of mine, will have the book and I will happily look it up.

It is true that the chamber dated 1914 DWM can be faked by a determined tool maker as can any Luger ever made. So far, I have only heard of Krieghoff's and ku's being faked. But I am sure there are others. It is also true that I have run across dealers that swear that a 1914 DWM was never made. I have talked to Simpson and he can not recall ever having a chamber dated 1914 DWM for sale. But when I go shopping, I always carry a list of serial numbers with me of magazines, stocks and 1914 DWM artilleries. You never know when you'll get lucky.

I would feel much more comfortable buying 1914 DWM's than I do buying Kreighoff's. There was no standardization of Kreighoff's between years. A good restorer can hide a restored Kreighoff pretty easily. Much of the work was done by slave labor and Kreighoff did not even want to make them. After 1937 all of the Kreighoff's were made of left over and rejected military parts from the original and last contract. Bluing standards changed from year to year. The 'thumb print' wasn't on all of them after 1937. On and on. A 'cottage industry' faker can get away with more money by faking them. It takes a good eye for detail and a knowlegable Luger man to detect a true Kreighoff. And I am not so certain of the 'experts' that I have met. Few people in this world want to admit that they don't know. Gun people and otherwise.

Artilleries are pretty standard except for front sights and chamber dates and that helps in eliminating redone guns. It does not eliminate it totally, but it helps. But even adjustible front sights can be sometimes found on all years of WW1 military LP-08's. In reality, I have a harder time finding 1918's then Erfurts.

Wow! Did I leave myself open to be hammered my the members of this forum. Its too late tonight to do it so tomorrow I will try to give a formula for price diffentials between the different years of artillery lugers. Ich brauche etwas aspirine.

Big Norm

Johnny Peppers · 08-08-2001, 02:50 PM

Norm,

Where on the left side of the DWM LP08 barrel do you find the Erfurt proofs? I have never observed this, but maybe I am looking in the wrong place. On the Erfurt it is on the sight sleeve very near the receiver, but I see nothing on the DWM LP08. The Persian LP08's were supposedly made with barrels left over from WWI, so they too should have the proof.

08-04-2001, 11:12 PM	#1
Johnny Peppers User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Calion, Arkansas Posts: 1,042 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Dirty Cryin' Shame Went to a small gunshow today, and a friend stopped by to show me an artillery Luger he had recently bought. The LP08 had had the stock lug almost completely ground off, and then the entire pistol had been reblued. The worst part was that it was a 1914 dated DWM which is considered by most to be the rarest of the WWI Lugers.

08-04-2001, 11:28 PM	#2
ViggoG RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: South Side Virginia Posts: 534 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Re: Can it be undone ??? Johnny would it be considered a bad thing if a Fine Relic were carefully restored and so marked as a display item . Ita a shame that a rare piece should have to be discarded as little more than trash . I understand that Museums do it ? What are your thoughts ? ViggoG

08-04-2001, 11:41 PM	#3
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	Re: Dirty Cryin' Shame Oh WOW! that is a shame. But at one time, the BATF said that it had to be done to make the gun legal. Then there was once an article in a gun magazine that said that if the stock lug was removed the gun had a better balance in the grip. Then I heard if some southern sheriff geting ahold of a guys recovered from a robberys Luger. The sheriff removed the stock lug without asking permission or telling anybody before he did it. The the sheriff returned the Luger to the owner. There is a guy in a local gun show in Michigan who has been trying to sell an artillery for forever. It had the lug removed too. He tried to weld a lug on it in hopes that he could sell it. I haven't seen the guy or the artillery for a long time so I don't know if he ever got rid of it. I also cry a little when I see the barrel of an artillery or a navy sawed off. Bought a navy once that had that done to it. The frame and the receiver was beautiful original blue and great strawing. But someone put a new barrel on it. They did a good job renumbering the barrel. But the bluing on the barrel just was not the same. People with good eyes could tell the difference. But you are talking about a chamber dated 1914 DWM artillery and that is different and makes me feel sad. There are many horror stories out there in the Luger world. Big Norm

08-04-2001, 11:51 PM	#4
Johnny Peppers User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Calion, Arkansas Posts: 1,042 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Re: Can it be undone ??? Viggo, The first thing that crossed my mind was having Ted restore the finish, but the stock lug was ground completely off, and from the looks of things it was done on a bench grinder. The area on either side of the stock lug is finished perfectly flat, so a round contour in this area is impossible by simply grinding. The stock lug could probably be rebuilt and remachined, but after a sizeable investment you would still have a rebuilt Luger.

08-04-2001, 11:58 PM	#5
Johnny Peppers User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Calion, Arkansas Posts: 1,042 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Re: Dirty Cryin' Shame The 1914 chamber dated DWM LP08 is extremely rare, and a lot of large collections do not have one. I have never seen one come up for sale on the open market as they usually change hands from one collector to another.

08-05-2001, 12:57 AM	#6
ViggoG RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: South Side Virginia Posts: 534 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Re: Can it be undone ??? But how many would love to have even a restored 1914 DWM it looks to me as if there is still some value in restoring it if it is approprately marked . ViggoG

08-05-2001, 02:24 AM	#7
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	Re: Dirty Cryin' Shame Yah! A 1914 chamber dated artillery is very rare. This is one of those cases that I believe you should ignore the production numbers. Since this was the first artillery, there were probably many of them acquired by egotistical German officers at the beginning of the war and subsequently lost at the bottom of artillery craters, or trenches or at the bottom of the ocean. I am sure that many did not make it through the war. Big Norm

08-05-2001, 09:03 AM	#8
tom h Guest Posts: n/a	Re: 1914 DWM LPO8 Big Norm, I beg to differ with your statement that this was the FIRST Artillery model. It is my understanding that the Government Arsenal at Erfurt made the first LPO8s, but since these were not coverered under DWM's licencing agreement with the Imperial Government for the P08, so DWM made them cease production, so that they could make them. Also, once WW1 started, I'm sure that Erfurt needed more space to make M98 rifles. Since so many phony 1914 DWM LPO8s have been made, it is probably a bad idea to try to restore a buffed reblued one missing the stock lug. If I saw it at a show, I'd probably dismiss it as another fake. Tom

08-05-2001, 10:37 AM	#9
Thor User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Rio Rancho, New Mexico Posts: 4,583 Thanks: 958 Thanked 970 Times in 276 Posts	Re: 1914 DWM LPO8 I thought the rare Artillery was the 1914 ERFURT? ~Thor~

08-05-2001, 12:58 PM	#10
bill m User Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 385 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: 1914 DWM LPO8 Ted, For every 1914 DWM you see, you probably see 100 1914 Erfurts. The 1914 DWM Artillery model is extremely hard to find, and like JP stated, seldom if ever for sale, and usually bought from collections before they are ever offered for sale to the public.

08-05-2001, 01:12 PM	#11
BILL User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Western Washington Posts: 826 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: 1914 DWM LPO8 The 1914 military DWM is more common than the 1914 Erfurt but the arty is most commonly seen (by me, anyway) made by DWM and stamped 1917. It could be just my experience. A nice 'set' would be a 1914 military and a 1914 artillery. Since the DWM arty is rare and the Erfurt military is not as common as a DWM, it makes the set even that much nicer if they are both by the same manufacturer. This could justify the restoration of the damaged 1914 DWM artillery.

08-05-2001, 02:11 PM	#12
Johnny Peppers User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Calion, Arkansas Posts: 1,042 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Re: 1914 DWM LPO8 If you can believe production estimates there were more LP08's manufactured by DWM in 1917 than all other years combined. The 1914 dated DWM LP08 is known only into the early a suffix range, and with the most of production going to the 4" model, the 5000 figure from Still is probably quite high for the 1914 DWM LP08. Possibly Erfurt was assigned production of the majority of LP08's as Erfurt produced more of the LP08's than the 4" pistols in 1914.

08-05-2001, 02:21 PM	#13
Bill S. Guest Posts: n/a	Re: Dirty Cryin' Shame Hi, Many years ago at the Baltimore gun show,I saw a 98+% Borchardt with matching stock that had been torched through in 4 different places. The grips and only some small parts were salvagable. The barrel was cut, next it was cut down through the chamber, then up through the trigger assembly, then down at the rear of the toggle. It was a horrible sight and I could only guess what kind of a Government nitwit would have done this desecration. It was a product of the same mentality/law which caused the artillery stock lug to be ground off. Ciao, Bill S. (ALFA2NINE@aol.com)

08-05-2001, 02:56 PM	#14
Dan Rawlings Guest Posts: n/a	1914 DWM LPO8 Rig I know someone with a 1914 DWM LP08 with matching serials on pistol, magazine, and stock. He also has the 1914 dated holster for it. It wasn't offered for sale, but how much do you think it would be worth? (Finish appears 90%-95%)

08-05-2001, 03:49 PM	#15
Daniel User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Ct. and Ma. Posts: 152 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: Dirty Cryin' Shame Yep, a stock lug can be replaced I had it done on a long barrel 1920 Com'l and I know another one that was done by the same craftsman. I can't tell from an original maybe someone else could but not me. I'd buy that 1914 and replace that lug in a heartbeat and anybody could call it"restored "and I'd care less.

08-05-2001, 04:36 PM	#16
HÃ?Â¥kan Spuhr User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Sweden Posts: 282 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: Can it be undone ??? Hi Viggo Without considering if it's worth the truoble and money or not I can do the welding and the machining. If you are seriusely interested buy the gun and ship it to Bar-Sto in California ( the pistolbarrelproducer) and he will send it over to me. I don't do any rustbluing so that you have to take care of yourself. But as always with all weldings it's impossible to guarantie that there will be no colordifferances. The bluing can be perfect and a year after the bluing is different. Regards HÃ?Â¥kan http://www.vapensmedjan.com

08-05-2001, 04:48 PM	#17
Johnny Peppers User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Calion, Arkansas Posts: 1,042 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Re: 1914 DWM LPO8 Rig Dan, I don't remember which auction it was, but recently an all matching Erfurt LP08 rig in what was suppose to be super condition sold for $11,000. While I don't believe that this one sale sets the market price, it does show what some people are willing to pay to acquire rare complete sets.

08-06-2001, 12:04 AM	#18
Tracy Guest Posts: n/a	Re: Can it be undone ??? I sure would consider having Gale Morgan take a crack at restoration. There was an artical on his restoration of a Japanese pistol years ago in the Gun Digest. He is expensive but good, probably make the Luger look like it just came out of Factory. Would be alright if it didn't get passed of as original.

08-08-2001, 05:22 AM	#19
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	Re: 1914 DWM LPO8 Tom, I have just quickly reviewed John Walthers book "The Luger Book" pg 149 thru 152 and and I don't think that the result really would confirm one way or the other about who was first. Both factories where scheduled to manufacture the LP-08's with Erfurt scheduled to manufactured most of them and Erfurt given priority. Erfurt was supposed to manufacture 75,000 and DWM 69,000 over a 5 year time frame. Not a big difference. Then the war got in the way and schedules changed. One 1915 Erfurt artillery has been authenticated. Examining the serial numbers does not seem to help. Erfurt serial numbers are from 63 to 9448b with P-08's interspersed within that range. 1914 DWM serial numbers are 161 to 1995a. Not a big help. Erfurt production is estimated at 23,000 while DWM 1914 LP-08's production is estimated at 5,000. Erfurt made all the barrels for all artilleries in all years and their proof marks are on the left hand side of the barrels. I found John Walthers book to contain more information than either Jan Still's or "Lugers At Random". These three books are the only authorative books that I have at my disposal. But if you have someone else to quote then I am sure that Jerry Peters, who is a friend of mine, will have the book and I will happily look it up. It is true that the chamber dated 1914 DWM can be faked by a determined tool maker as can any Luger ever made. So far, I have only heard of Krieghoff's and ku's being faked. But I am sure there are others. It is also true that I have run across dealers that swear that a 1914 DWM was never made. I have talked to Simpson and he can not recall ever having a chamber dated 1914 DWM for sale. But when I go shopping, I always carry a list of serial numbers with me of magazines, stocks and 1914 DWM artilleries. You never know when you'll get lucky. I would feel much more comfortable buying 1914 DWM's than I do buying Kreighoff's. There was no standardization of Kreighoff's between years. A good restorer can hide a restored Kreighoff pretty easily. Much of the work was done by slave labor and Kreighoff did not even want to make them. After 1937 all of the Kreighoff's were made of left over and rejected military parts from the original and last contract. Bluing standards changed from year to year. The 'thumb print' wasn't on all of them after 1937. On and on. A 'cottage industry' faker can get away with more money by faking them. It takes a good eye for detail and a knowlegable Luger man to detect a true Kreighoff. And I am not so certain of the 'experts' that I have met. Few people in this world want to admit that they don't know. Gun people and otherwise. Artilleries are pretty standard except for front sights and chamber dates and that helps in eliminating redone guns. It does not eliminate it totally, but it helps. But even adjustible front sights can be sometimes found on all years of WW1 military LP-08's. In reality, I have a harder time finding 1918's then Erfurts. Wow! Did I leave myself open to be hammered my the members of this forum. Its too late tonight to do it so tomorrow I will try to give a formula for price diffentials between the different years of artillery lugers. Ich brauche etwas aspirine. Big Norm

08-08-2001, 02:50 PM	#20
Johnny Peppers User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Calion, Arkansas Posts: 1,042 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Re: 1914 DWM LPO8 Norm, Where on the left side of the DWM LP08 barrel do you find the Erfurt proofs? I have never observed this, but maybe I am looking in the wrong place. On the Erfurt it is on the sight sleeve very near the receiver, but I see nothing on the DWM LP08. The Persian LP08's were supposedly made with barrels left over from WWI, so they too should have the proof.