Abercrombie & Fitch

wterrell · 11-16-2002, 07:11 PM

On AuctionArms:

[quote] This is an Abercrombie & Fitch, N.Y. Luger. There were only 51 made!! This is the rare Swiss made Abercrombie & Fitch marked 4.75 inch barrel Luger. There were 51 manufactured in 30 caliber and 49 in 9 mm. It has the DWM Scroll on the front link. The Swiss Starburst Cross above the chamber. The barrel is marked ABERCROMBIE & FITCH CO. NEW YORK, MADE IN SWITZERLAND in two lines. The barrel serial number run with the barrel. The extractor is marked GELADEN. There are NO proofs. There is NO provision for a stock. It has a thumb and grip safety. <hr></blockquote>

http://www.auctionarms.com/search/di...temNum=3523682

Heinz · 11-16-2002, 08:18 PM

A great example of one of the first "boosted" Lugers. It is not Swiss, it is a DWM. A&F had the barrels made in Switzerland and it is the barrel that is marked "made in Switzerland". Abercrobie and Fitch was in the business of parting folks from their money and felt this an acceptable ruse.

wterrell · 11-16-2002, 08:32 PM

Heinz,
Then your judgement of this pistol is "a piece of crap"? "Not worth collecting"? "A shooter"? "A boosted Luger"?
That is brave!

wterrell · 11-17-2002, 08:47 AM

tacfoley,
Calm down, man! You've got my left eye tangled, just a bit. I have not puzzled over a post in quite some time.

Ron Wood · 11-17-2002, 09:56 AM

[img]confused.gif[/img] [img]confused.gif[/img] [img]confused.gif[/img]

wterrell · 11-17-2002, 11:14 AM

tacfoley,
I can cope with that.

Ron Wood · 11-17-2002, 11:22 AM

tacfoley
You are a very droll fellow of considerable wit. Problem is that I am a bit slow, so I don't always know if you are having me on or being as serious as snakebite.

Johnny Peppers · 11-17-2002, 12:51 PM

That might be a good serial number to take note of in case it shows back up as a reborn virgin.

Heinz · 11-17-2002, 09:30 PM

I did not say it was a piece of crap. I said A&F was boosting. It is a realitively rare and ancient boost, and has significant value. But it ain't a Swiss. It is a DWM that A&F wanted people to think was Swiss.

And we wonder why people leave this forum.

Edward Tinker · 11-17-2002, 09:42 PM

Heinz, I think that Wes was expecting you to reply right after he said [quote]Heinz,
Then your judgement of this pistol is "a piece of crap"? "Not worth collecting"? "A shooter"? "A boosted Luger"? That is brave <hr></blockquote> And I think he thought you'd reply back that it was an old boost and considered okay by "most" collectors.

I don't beleive Wes meant any harm by it and just was expecting you to explain more to him your knowledge on A&F pistols, which I sure as heck don't know anything about. [img]wink.gif[/img]

Ron Wood · 11-17-2002, 10:52 PM

Sometimes it is hard to pick up on a wry sense of humor. As I observed with tacfoley, I am a bit slow, so usually I have to read his and Wes' bits of repartee a couple of times to realize that the comments are made in jest. Clever fellows, obviously a little more cerebral than I am.

Lugerdoc · 11-18-2002, 08:35 AM

Who do you guy think made all of the Swiss lugers before 1916? DWM that's who. So pehraps A&F had its batch stamped "Made in Switzerland" so they wouldn't have to be imported by Han Taucher (DWM's US Rep) or perhaps as someone stated, they were even rebarreled in Heidiland. Which reminds me: Check out Miss Klumn on TV this Wednesday night. Tom

John Sabato · 11-18-2002, 10:49 AM

Heinz, I agree with Ed Tinker, that Wes was merely asking for clarification of your comments. Some of these literary well read folks seem to believe that we all are... [img]biggrin.gif[/img]

I must admit that sometimes Wes, the true intent of your words escapes me 2! [img]wink.gif[/img]

Pete Ebbink · 11-18-2002, 02:30 PM

Hello Folks,

Maybe A&F did what might be called "historical boosting"...

If they were trying to sell Lugers in the 1920's in the USA in a marketplace that might have been very "anti-Germany" after WWI, this might have been A&F's attempt to boost marketing and sales of Lugers (to the USA sporting marketplace) by "portraying" their being made in Switzerland (an historical neutral country...) ?

Just sheer speculation on my part....

But I do have the following questions :

1. Am I correct in concluding that A&F pistols have been "accepted" by Luger collectors over the years as being collectable and desirable ?

2. Is there still an issue with "faked" A&F Lugers; with the "real" ones having a single-line barrel inscription and the "faked" ones having a two-line barrel inscription ?

Thanks for your help...

Pete... <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />

Hugh · 11-18-2002, 06:19 PM

Hey Tom,

I'll be watching Heidi with you on Wednesday nite! [img]eek.gif[/img] <img src="graemlins/jumper.gif" border="0" alt="[jumper]" /> [img]smile.gif[/img]

wterrell · 11-18-2002, 08:36 PM

Heinz,
If I doubted your knowledge, I would not have replied so freely or bluntly. I would propose argument and persuasion. This forum is where we entertain ourselves and spar with our wits. Please pardon me if I have misjudged your intensity of investment in this thread.

Heinz · 11-18-2002, 09:00 PM

Wes, sorry your post went over my head.

My understanding on this variation is there were a total of 100 in both calibers acquired in 1921 0r 1922 by Abercrombie and Fitch.. (Hans Tauscher was out of the business and A&F and Stoeger (at least) were bringing Lugers in at that time. My reference is Jan Still Weimar Lugers pg 269. He mentioned they are found in the "i" suffix range. He shows photos of 2989i
(DWM 1921 production range)The photo looks like an old model long frame with grip safety.
They are certainly collectible. I have seen a couple that were pretty pricey. I would be cautious with these because having a DWM frame and toggle and a Swiss barrel they might not be the hardest thing in the world to fake. Still shows a grip safety. One of those I saw did not have a grip safety. Maybe someone else on the forum knows if the grip safety is essential to this model.
regards, Heinz

Pete Ebbink · 11-18-2002, 10:10 PM

Hello Heinz,

I did notice on one of the big luger dealer's web-site, that an A&F has an asking price of ~ $ 7,500.00.

Guess they are collectible...

Regards,

Pete... <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />

wterrell · 11-18-2002, 10:13 PM

Edward,
How dare you edit my post!
What you edited said good-bye to this forum and that it has been interesting.
How dare you insinuate that I posted anything insulting or crude!
Good-bye!

Edward Tinker · 11-18-2002, 10:27 PM

I am sorry Wes, it "appeared" that was said, was directed towards Heinz, as it was just after what else you said and although out of character, I thought maybe you took what was said the wrong way and meant something else.

If I offended you, then I am sorry, as I feel you add much to this forum and have removed my edit.

It is a trick deciding what should or should not be edited, but if I do (besides a quick, obvious edit of a misspelling that I KNOW was unintentional), I always leave my initials.

Again, my apologies if I misunderstood your meaning, as I didn't understand why you said goodbye [img]eek.gif[/img] .

Ed

11-16-2002, 07:11 PM	#1
wterrell User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Colorado Posts: 1,096 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Abercrombie & Fitch On AuctionArms: [quote] This is an Abercrombie & Fitch, N.Y. Luger. There were only 51 made!! This is the rare Swiss made Abercrombie & Fitch marked 4.75 inch barrel Luger. There were 51 manufactured in 30 caliber and 49 in 9 mm. It has the DWM Scroll on the front link. The Swiss Starburst Cross above the chamber. The barrel is marked ABERCROMBIE & FITCH CO. NEW YORK, MADE IN SWITZERLAND in two lines. The barrel serial number run with the barrel. The extractor is marked GELADEN. There are NO proofs. There is NO provision for a stock. It has a thumb and grip safety. <hr></blockquote> http://www.auctionarms.com/search/di...temNum=3523682 __________________ Noli me vocare, ego te vocabo, wes --------------------

11-16-2002, 08:32 PM	#3
wterrell User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Colorado Posts: 1,096 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Heinz, Then your judgement of this pistol is "a piece of crap"? "Not worth collecting"? "A shooter"? "A boosted Luger"? That is brave! __________________ Noli me vocare, ego te vocabo, wes --------------------

11-17-2002, 08:47 AM	#4
wterrell User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Colorado Posts: 1,096 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	tacfoley, Calm down, man! You've got my left eye tangled, just a bit. I have not puzzled over a post in quite some time. __________________ Noli me vocare, ego te vocabo, wes --------------------

11-17-2002, 09:56 AM	#5
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,988 Thanks: 1,067 Thanked 5,097 Times in 1,676 Posts	[img]confused.gif[/img] [img]confused.gif[/img] [img]confused.gif[/img] __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

11-17-2002, 11:14 AM	#6
wterrell User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Colorado Posts: 1,096 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	tacfoley, I can cope with that. __________________ Noli me vocare, ego te vocabo, wes --------------------

11-16-2002, 08:18 PM	#2
Heinz User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Greenville SC Posts: 1,004 Thanks: 377 Thanked 410 Times in 180 Posts	A great example of one of the first "boosted" Lugers. It is not Swiss, it is a DWM. A&F had the barrels made in Switzerland and it is the barrel that is marked "made in Switzerland". Abercrobie and Fitch was in the business of parting folks from their money and felt this an acceptable ruse.

11-17-2002, 11:22 AM	#7
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,988 Thanks: 1,067 Thanked 5,097 Times in 1,676 Posts	tacfoley You are a very droll fellow of considerable wit. Problem is that I am a bit slow, so I don't always know if you are having me on or being as serious as snakebite. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

11-17-2002, 12:51 PM	#8
Johnny Peppers User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Calion, Arkansas Posts: 1,042 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	That might be a good serial number to take note of in case it shows back up as a reborn virgin.

11-17-2002, 09:30 PM	#9
Heinz User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Greenville SC Posts: 1,004 Thanks: 377 Thanked 410 Times in 180 Posts	I did not say it was a piece of crap. I said A&F was boosting. It is a realitively rare and ancient boost, and has significant value. But it ain't a Swiss. It is a DWM that A&F wanted people to think was Swiss. And we wonder why people leave this forum.

11-17-2002, 09:42 PM	#10
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,912 Thanks: 1,989 Thanked 4,502 Times in 2,077 Posts	Heinz, I think that Wes was expecting you to reply right after he said [quote]Heinz, Then your judgement of this pistol is "a piece of crap"? "Not worth collecting"? "A shooter"? "A boosted Luger"? That is brave <hr></blockquote> And I think he thought you'd reply back that it was an old boost and considered okay by "most" collectors. I don't beleive Wes meant any harm by it and just was expecting you to explain more to him your knowledge on A&F pistols, which I sure as heck don't know anything about. [img]wink.gif[/img] __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

11-17-2002, 10:52 PM	#11
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,988 Thanks: 1,067 Thanked 5,097 Times in 1,676 Posts	Sometimes it is hard to pick up on a wry sense of humor. As I observed with tacfoley, I am a bit slow, so usually I have to read his and Wes' bits of repartee a couple of times to realize that the comments are made in jest. Clever fellows, obviously a little more cerebral than I am. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

11-18-2002, 08:35 AM	#12
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 736 Times in 483 Posts	Who do you guy think made all of the Swiss lugers before 1916? DWM that's who. So pehraps A&F had its batch stamped "Made in Switzerland" so they wouldn't have to be imported by Han Taucher (DWM's US Rep) or perhaps as someone stated, they were even rebarreled in Heidiland. Which reminds me: Check out Miss Klumn on TV this Wednesday night. Tom __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 lugerdoc@charter.net

11-18-2002, 10:49 AM	#13
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	Heinz, I agree with Ed Tinker, that Wes was merely asking for clarification of your comments. Some of these literary well read folks seem to believe that we all are... [img]biggrin.gif[/img] I must admit that sometimes Wes, the true intent of your words escapes me 2! [img]wink.gif[/img] __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

11-18-2002, 02:30 PM	#14
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Hello Folks, Maybe A&F did what might be called "historical boosting"... If they were trying to sell Lugers in the 1920's in the USA in a marketplace that might have been very "anti-Germany" after WWI, this might have been A&F's attempt to boost marketing and sales of Lugers (to the USA sporting marketplace) by "portraying" their being made in Switzerland (an historical neutral country...) ? Just sheer speculation on my part.... But I do have the following questions : 1. Am I correct in concluding that A&F pistols have been "accepted" by Luger collectors over the years as being collectable and desirable ? 2. Is there still an issue with "faked" A&F Lugers; with the "real" ones having a single-line barrel inscription and the "faked" ones having a two-line barrel inscription ? Thanks for your help... Pete... <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />

11-18-2002, 06:19 PM	#15
Hugh RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Southeast Texas Swamp Posts: 2,460 Thanks: 2 Thanked 165 Times in 64 Posts	Hey Tom, I'll be watching Heidi with you on Wednesday nite! [img]eek.gif[/img] <img src="graemlins/jumper.gif" border="0" alt="[jumper]" /> [img]smile.gif[/img] __________________ *TRUMP FOR PREZ IN '20!*

11-18-2002, 08:36 PM	#16
wterrell User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Colorado Posts: 1,096 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Heinz, If I doubted your knowledge, I would not have replied so freely or bluntly. I would propose argument and persuasion. This forum is where we entertain ourselves and spar with our wits. Please pardon me if I have misjudged your intensity of investment in this thread. __________________ Noli me vocare, ego te vocabo, wes --------------------

11-18-2002, 09:00 PM	#17
Heinz User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Greenville SC Posts: 1,004 Thanks: 377 Thanked 410 Times in 180 Posts	Wes, sorry your post went over my head. My understanding on this variation is there were a total of 100 in both calibers acquired in 1921 0r 1922 by Abercrombie and Fitch.. (Hans Tauscher was out of the business and A&F and Stoeger (at least) were bringing Lugers in at that time. My reference is Jan Still Weimar Lugers pg 269. He mentioned they are found in the "i" suffix range. He shows photos of 2989i (DWM 1921 production range)The photo looks like an old model long frame with grip safety. They are certainly collectible. I have seen a couple that were pretty pricey. I would be cautious with these because having a DWM frame and toggle and a Swiss barrel they might not be the hardest thing in the world to fake. Still shows a grip safety. One of those I saw did not have a grip safety. Maybe someone else on the forum knows if the grip safety is essential to this model. regards, Heinz

11-18-2002, 10:10 PM	#18
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Hello Heinz, I did notice on one of the big luger dealer's web-site, that an A&F has an asking price of ~ $ 7,500.00. Guess they are collectible... Regards, Pete... <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />

11-18-2002, 10:13 PM	#19
wterrell User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Colorado Posts: 1,096 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Edward, How dare you edit my post! What you edited said good-bye to this forum and that it has been interesting. How dare you insinuate that I posted anything insulting or crude! Good-bye! __________________ Noli me vocare, ego te vocabo, wes --------------------

11-18-2002, 10:27 PM	#20
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,912 Thanks: 1,989 Thanked 4,502 Times in 2,077 Posts	I am sorry Wes, it "appeared" that was said, was directed towards Heinz, as it was just after what else you said and although out of character, I thought maybe you took what was said the wrong way and meant something else. If I offended you, then I am sorry, as I feel you add much to this forum and have removed my edit. It is a trick deciding what should or should not be edited, but if I do (besides a quick, obvious edit of a misspelling that I KNOW was unintentional), I always leave my initials. Again, my apologies if I misunderstood your meaning, as I didn't understand why you said goodbye [img]eek.gif[/img] . Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV