LugerForum Discussion Forums my profile | register | faq | search
upload photo | donate | calendar

Go Back   LugerForum Discussion Forums > Luger Discussion Forums > Commercial Lugers

Reply
Thread Tools Display Modes
Unread 01-25-2007, 04:13 PM   #1
Dwight Gruber
User
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Portland, Oregon
Posts: 3,867
Thanks: 0
Thanked 1,211 Times in 403 Posts
Default DWM Commercial Survey--call for data

Revised: added Finnish info request 06/29/07--DG

Since there has been some activity on this topic recently from new members, I thought I'd reinstate this headline post in order to make things a little easier to comprehend.

I am engaged in a long-term project to produce a database of known DWM Commercial Lugers and some of their important characteristics, from the 1900 Old Model guns all the way through the end of DWM production in 1929.

The database is available for download by going here: http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthre...threadid=14292

The data I seek is comprehensive. Here is what I am looking for:

1900 (Old Model):
*serial number
*variation
...Commercial (blank chamber)
...AE (American Eagle on chamber)
...Swiss Commercial (Swiss cross-in-starburst on chamber, c/BUG proofs)
*proof marks, left receiver and barrel
...crown over B,U,G
...no proof marks
*Swiss cross + on barrel?
*grip safety
...narrow N (extends halfway across grip strap)
...wide W (extends full width of grip strap)
*Thumb safety type
...type 1, flat-checkered
...type 2, raised-checkered
...type 3, raised-ridged (fluted)
*Where is the takedown lever numbered?
...right, round end R
...left face F
...bottom edge B
*Stamped GERMANY or not?
*Any additional noteworthy characteristics

1902:
*serial number
*variation
...Commercial (blank chamber)
...AE (American Eagle on chamber)
...Carbine
*proof marks, left receiver and barrel
...crown over B,U,G
...no proof marks
*grip safety
...narrow N (extends halfway across grip strap)
...wide W (extends full width of grip strap)
*Stamped GERMANY or not?
*Carbine stock (if present)
...one-screw or two-screw?
...matching?
*Any additional noteworthy characteristics

1906 (New Model):
*serial number
*variation
...Commercial (blank chamber)
...AE (American Eagle on chamber)
...Swiss Commercial (Swiss cross-in-starburst on chamber, c/BUG or c/N proofs)
...Navy Commercial
*proof marks, left receiver
...crown over B,U,G
...crown over N, lazy (on its side) or upright
...no proof marks
*Caliber .30 or 9mm?
*Thumb safety stamped GESICHERT or polished?
*Extractor stamped GELADEN or LOADED?
*Stamped GERMANY or not?
*long frame or short?
*thumb safety area stamped GESICHERT or SAFE?
*Any additional noteworthy characteristics or unusual variation (French, etc.)?

1908 (no stock lug):
*serial number
*proof marks, left receiver
...crown over B,U,G
...crown over N, lazy (on its side) or upright
*Stamped GERMANY or not?
*Recoil spring well spur or straight? (see http://luger.gunboards.com/topic.asp...archTerms=spur )
*c/X c/X c/X military proofs?
*Any additional noteworthy characteristics

20DWM (with stock lug) (previously known as 1923 Commercial) (includes 1914 Commercial variation)
*serial number
*proof marks, left receiver
...crown over N, lazy (on its side)
...crown over N, upright
*c/X c/X c/X military proofs?
*Caliber .30 or 9mm?
*Sear bar
...full-length
...relieved
*Export marked?
...GERMANY
...MADE IN GERMANY
...location of stamp
...not marked
*Chamber marked?
...none
...date
...American Eagle stamp
*A.F. Stoeger inscription?
...2-line
...3-line
*Safe/Loaded?
*Police characteristics
...sear safety
...magazine safety
...police unit mark
*Any additional noteworthy characteristics

*All 5-digit marked magazines, whether they are with a gun or not.

Alphabet Commercial (previously known as 1920 Commercial) and
29 DWM (previously known as DWM/Mauser Sneak)
*serial number, with letter suffix
*proof marks, left receiver--crown over N, upright? Cc/U?
*right receiver proofs?
*blank toggle?
*Caliber .30 or 9mm?
*Export marked?
...GERMANY
...MADE IN GERMANY
...location of stamp
...not marked
*Krieghoff Suhl back-frame marked?
*Chamber marked?
...none
...date
...American Eagle stamp
*Finnish Suome Armijnen M-23
...S.A marked left receiver
...Tikka barrel 4-inch? 5-inch?
...9mm or .30?
...unit mark grip medallion?
*A.F. Stoeger inscription?
...2-line
...3-line
*Safe/Loaded?
*Blank toggle? DWM toggle?
*Eagle/WaA right receiver proof?
*Police characteristics
...sear safety
...magazine safety
...police unit mark
*Any additional noteworthy characteristics

1920 Carbine
*Serial number (with suffix, if present)
...matching or not?
*Caliber
*Proof marks
*Barrel
...Carbine barrel
...Long barre and length
*Sight
...Carbine sight
...Artillery sight
*Grip safety?
*Forend accellerator spring?
*Frame
...long
...short
*GERMANY export mark?
*Stock matching?
*Any additional noteworthy characteristics

If anyone has a Commercial DWM Luger they have not yet reported, I'd appreciate knowing the details. Post your info here, or email me dwightg@clear.net. As usual, I will keep sources confidential if requested.

Thanks again to everybody who has sent me info so far, and thanks in advance for the new info.

--Dwight

Last edited by Dwight Gruber; 02-26-2010 at 08:25 PM. Reason: email contact changed
Dwight Gruber is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 04-16-2007, 09:34 PM   #2
Michigan Gunner
User
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Michigan, on the border
Posts: 75
Thanks: 2
Thanked 15 Times in 9 Posts
Default Luger 1910

I have what I believe is a DWM 1910 Commerical Luger. The chamber is date stamped as such. The condition is very good, all matching except the mag.
which is from the same period, wooden base.

I tried to post a photo in the past but didn't get it to go.

I can give you more infromation on it if you are interested.


Regards.




Lock and Load!
Michigan Gunner is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 04-17-2007, 03:39 AM   #3
Dwight Gruber
User
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Portland, Oregon
Posts: 3,867
Thanks: 0
Thanked 1,211 Times in 403 Posts
Default

Michael,

Thanks for the post. A 1910 chamber date indicates that yours is a German Army Luger, not a Commercial. This can be verified by the presence of three inspection/proof stamps on the right receiver.

I'm sure that everyone will be interested in seeing your pictures, if you can't manage to post them email them to me dwightg@pacifier.com and I will post them for you.

--Dwight
Dwight Gruber is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 04-17-2007, 05:48 PM   #4
Michigan Gunner
User
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Michigan, on the border
Posts: 75
Thanks: 2
Thanked 15 Times in 9 Posts
Default

Dwight;

Thanks for your correct ID of my Luger. It does have the three "proofs" on the receiver.

I'll email you some photos. Even my slow modem should manage that.



Lock and Load!
Michigan Gunner is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 04-18-2007, 02:14 AM   #5
MFC
User
 
MFC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 1,233
Thanks: 183
Thanked 278 Times in 160 Posts
Default

Hi Dwight,
I sent this one to you a few months ago but still don't see it in your database.
I don't know how often you update it, but I'll send it again anyway; plus my new pride and joy.

Alphabet Comm. S# 3686 P, 30 cal., C/N upright on left of receiver and on barrel, lazy C/N on left of breechblock, GERMANY on left frame rail above takedown, GESICHERT under thumb safety, GELADEN on extractor.

Question: Do you find it odd that you only have three in your database with
the P suffix, all 36XX? I assume they made 9999 with that suffix: 1 P through 9999 P. Please set me straight if I'm wrong.

My new 100 year old:
1906 AE, S# 45165, 9mm, no proofs, GERMANY under S# on front of frame,
LOADED on extractor, polished safety area, B inside circle on barrel under S#. Barrel is matching and has halo around the S#'s.

There is a thread disscussing another 1906 9mm with a Brazilian contract barrel.

Thanks,
Mike C.
__________________
Mike C.
MFC is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 04-18-2007, 03:21 AM   #6
Dwight Gruber
User
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Portland, Oregon
Posts: 3,867
Thanks: 0
Thanked 1,211 Times in 403 Posts
Default

Michael,

I got your pictures and will post them presently in the Military Luger section.

Mike,

Thanks for the other info. The reason for only three p suffix Alphabet Commercials is that I started keeping those numbers realatively recently, and haven't released a new version of the database in over a year.

I expect to have a new one available to download within a couple of weeks.

--Dwight
Dwight Gruber is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 04-18-2007, 03:33 AM   #7
MFC
User
 
MFC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 1,233
Thanks: 183
Thanked 278 Times in 160 Posts
Default

Dwight ,
I edited my post with more info on the 1906 AE. Didn't know if you saw it are not.
Thanks,
Mike C.
__________________
Mike C.
MFC is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 06-27-2007, 03:36 AM   #8
Dwight Gruber
User
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Portland, Oregon
Posts: 3,867
Thanks: 0
Thanked 1,211 Times in 403 Posts
Default

Information search list revised 6/27/07

--Dwight
Dwight Gruber is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 06-29-2007, 02:59 AM   #9
Dwight Gruber
User
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Portland, Oregon
Posts: 3,867
Thanks: 0
Thanked 1,211 Times in 403 Posts
Default

Revised: added Finnish info request 06/29/07

--Dwight
Dwight Gruber is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 08-16-2007, 02:14 AM   #10
Ron Wood
Moderator
2010 LugerForum
Patron
 
Ron Wood's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso
Posts: 6,896
Thanks: 938
Thanked 4,695 Times in 1,594 Posts
Default

El Paso is pretty much the armpit of the universe for collecting Lugers?¦ if it isn't a Colt or Winchester it stirs little interest. But every now and then a miracle happens. I picked up a pretty nice very early 1900 Commercial today, #3453, C/BUG proofs, Type II thumb safety, takedown numbered on the bottom, no GERMANY stamp. Came with a decent commercial holster, sound but looks an authentic 100 years old. It is a full flap style, fully calf skin lined with a repeated/chained small leaf pattern border stamping and a brass stud closure. Looks like it might be an old Sam Meyers holster, but it has no makers mark, only 174 stamped on the belt loop. Kind of made my day!
__________________
If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction
Ron Wood is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 08-16-2007, 02:36 AM   #11
Dwight Gruber
User
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Portland, Oregon
Posts: 3,867
Thanks: 0
Thanked 1,211 Times in 403 Posts
Default

Ron,

Congratulations on a very cool find, very glad for you. Also thanks very much for the report, this thumb safety type is very informative.

--Dwight
Dwight Gruber is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 10-31-2007, 03:39 PM   #12
Dwight Gruber
User
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Portland, Oregon
Posts: 3,867
Thanks: 0
Thanked 1,211 Times in 403 Posts
Default

Orv Reichert is my hero! I opened up my email this afternoon and what should I find but a message from him with the key to the Dave Rivera/Dave Soracco database information! Anyone who has been following this saga knows that I have been looking for this informaton for several years.

If you are looking at a current copy of the database, know that the greyed-text conditional detail information is now confirmed as listed. The next database release will have this info as regular text, with no question.

Thanks again, Orv!

--Dwight
Dwight Gruber is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 02-18-2009, 01:03 PM   #13
lypet
User
 
lypet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: MN
Posts: 33
Thanks: 1
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Default Alphabet Commercial data

Alphabet Commercial # 2034n
proof marks, left receiver & barrel--crown over N, upright
blank toggle
Caliber .30
Export marked: GERMANY
location of stamp: Right receiver
Chamber marked: none
Extractor marked: Loaded
DWM toggle
All matching #s
Rework to like new condition.
lypet is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 05-13-2009, 04:02 AM   #14
squint
User
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 15
Thanks: 1
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Default

Alphabet Commercial
*serial number: 2183K - marked on underside of barrel and front of frame. Last 2 digits on underside of locking plate, takedown lever, and the lug underneath the rear sight. (all match)
*proof marks, left receiver, left side toggle, bottom of barrel --crown over N,
*Toggle Marked DWM
*Caliber .30
*Export marked: NO
*Chamber marked: NO
*Extractor marked GELADEN
*Any additional noteworthy characteristics

Since I don't know what's normal I will just write down everything I see:
Marked P -Underside of barrel on what appears to be a lug and a stamp just to the left of it the looks a bit like an I

On the left side grip frame there is a P half way down and a sideways H at the bottom near the bottom end of the mainspring, There is also an A on the left side of the frame between the trigger and the magazine release button. Inside the frame there is a J and what looks like a cursive n right behind the locking lug for the barrel/slide group.

The underside of the the rear part of the toggle is marked with a 3.
squint is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 05-13-2009, 11:27 AM   #15
DavidJayUden
Patron
LugerForum
Patron
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 4,047
Thanks: 578
Thanked 1,414 Times in 887 Posts
Default

Silly question: What makes it an " Alphabet" model?
DavidJayUden is offline   Reply With Quote
The following member says Thank You to DavidJayUden for your post:
Unread 05-13-2009, 11:45 AM   #16
Edward Tinker
Super Moderator
Eternal Lifer
LugerForum
Patron
 
Edward Tinker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: North of Spokane, WA
Posts: 15,809
Thanks: 1,868
Thanked 4,348 Times in 2,012 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidJayUden View Post
Silly question: What makes it an " Alphabet" model?
This was the phrase that Jan Still made up, as it made more sense than the old 1920 commericial...

An alphabet luger is one with serial number and suffix like a military model from WW1, i.e. there is serials from (for example) 1966l (small L) to 1966u ; then production started with Mauser and they started the G & and then the K dates, then the 1936 dates, etc.

There were also 5 digit lugers made for the commercial market made at the same time.

Alphabet lugers are generally considered to be military and police; you have to be aware that WW1 had suffixes too and you must look close at them for proofs etc to determine which is which....

I should add this explanation to the FAQ, this is what is there now (a quick look by me)
Quote:
41. All Comercial model Lugers up to the end of the war in 1918 had 5-digit serial# and lazy c/N proofs. Production ended around sn74722.

Late 1919 Commercial production started again, continuing the 5-digit serial numbering beginning around 74745. Guns have upright c/N proof. This is new designation 1920 DWM (formerly 1923 Commercial).

Mid-1921 the commercial serial# series reached 92000. DWM converted commercial production to the military convention of numbering, four digits with letter suffix. Numbering began with letter suffix i , guns have upright c/N proofs. This is new designation Alphabet Commercial (formerly 1920 Commercial). (Not all sources agree with Still about the changeover beginning at serial# 92000.)

1929 DWM production began the move to Mauser. Serial# suffixes s, t, u are produced this year under disputed circumstances. This is new designation 29 DWM (formerly Sneak).

Ed
__________________
Edward Tinker
************
Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers
Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

Edward Tinker is offline   Reply With Quote
The following 5 members says Thank You to Edward Tinker for your post:
Unread 05-13-2009, 02:38 PM   #17
DavidJayUden
Patron
LugerForum
Patron
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 4,047
Thanks: 578
Thanked 1,414 Times in 887 Posts
Default

Great explanation.
Thanks.
DavidJayUden is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 06-27-2009, 11:19 AM   #18
w2ec
User
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Apalachin, NY
Posts: 12
Thanks: 6
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Default

20 DWM (with stock lug)
3-7/8" barrel
serial number 8289 l (that's a lower case L), located on front of frame and barrel, two digits 89 on rear of toggle, takedown pin and side plate.
proof marks = crown over N, upright on barrel, breech block and left side of frame
Toggle marked DWM
Caliber .30
Export marked MADE IN GERMANY, right side of frame
Chamber marking none
Safe/Loaded GESICHERT/GELADEN
Wood butt on magazine, no markings
Note: MADE IN GERMANY is poorly stamped and is upside down in relation to frame (ie M of MADE is at barrel end of frame)
w2ec is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 06-29-2009, 12:46 PM   #19
Weasel505
User
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 46
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Default I did send my data...

...on my 1900 American Eagle (#2029), I think last November. I've never seen it in the database.

Would you like me to resend? Please advise. Thanks.

Weasel
Weasel505 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 06-29-2009, 05:06 PM   #20
FNorm
Patron
LugerForum
Patron
 
FNorm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Colorado
Posts: 978
Thanks: 68
Thanked 127 Times in 108 Posts
Default

1920, DWM, 7.65
9639m
Upright c/n L. receiver, and underside of barrel
Sear relived
'Germany' on front frame, under the serial #, just above the trigger guard
No chamber mark
Safe loaded in german

Lazy c/N on left breech block over a c/E. May be an Erfurt eagle
another lazy c/N on mid toggle left side
FNorm is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 08:15 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright 1998 - 2022, Lugerforum.com