Toggle not locking at all anymore?

[F15E_WSO]

Originally Posted by DonVoigt

You could post several views of the magazine, front, back, top , bottom, side views. It may be a POS aftermarket mag and just "won't work"- no matter what you do. JMHO.

DonVoigt, posting multiple photos of mag, couple photos here but bulk of photos at photo-sharing site imgur.

If you Luger Druids and Wizards can ID this mag from these photos well they will tell tales of your magic for years to come.

https://imgur.com/a/G9I2mBO

Link above to other photos; high res.

[F15E_WSO]

A new Mec-Gar magazine solved the problem of the "hold open". Popped in new magazine and pulled toggle back, held open 100% of the time. Cycled through multiple times, put in old mag (failed), back to the new one. Good fix

The mec-gar "button" was 2mm higher.

Easy $22 fix. Thanks to all for the feedback and steering me to an easy solution.

Still won't eject properly or cycle next round, this is back to the Fiocchi weakness, get PPU (can't find), or recoil spring strength.

[DonVoigt]

Originally Posted by F15E_WSO

DonVoigt, posting multiple photos of mag, couple photos here but bulk of photos at photo-sharing site imgur.

If you Luger Druids and Wizards can ID this mag from these photos well they will tell tales of your magic for years to come.

https://imgur.com/a/G9I2mBO

Link above to other photos; high res.

Can't tell the source, but it is obviously aftermarket and with all the rub marks pretty much oversize to boot.

Now that you have solved the magazine hold open problem, I'd retire that mag!

[4 Scale]

It's good you solved the hold open problem. On your ejection and cycle issue, IMO your best course is to wait for PPU to become available or somehow secure hand loads that are known to operate .30 Luger actions properly.

[Rick W.]

Sometimes folks will change out the button on the side of the magazine because of wear somewhere in the pistol. When I think of magazine height in the pistol kinda refers me to the notch in the magazine or the magazine latch itself, this also refers me to feeding height of cartridges.

The little button as you found out effects the hold open height when the mag is empty. The parameters above can enter into the operation of holdopen as well. I think the little leaf spring's main duty is to hold the holdopen itself down into the frame, until it is overpowered by the magazine. Recoil bounce should not effect the leaf spring's capability or you will get premature stoppages.

New oem buttons for magazines are usually available. Probably cost more than the new after market mag you bought though. I once got a Luger magazine that featured a portion of a bridge spike for the magazine button. The previous owner shaped it nicely and it worked. Have to admire using what you have sometimes, rather than throw money at things, all in the eye of the beholder.

I find the Italian magazines of nice quality, works fine in my Lugers; and mine are not all original anymore, shows the flexibility of their product I think.

You took some measurements, now you know how much bigger the button ought to be to work in your current environment. Sometimes tape can be wrapped around the outer edge, and then measured when things begin to jive.

Ammo is only one parameter of the function equasion. Easy to try I reckon and sometimes does the trick. I once had a previously owned Luger that I could barely pull the toggle train out of the receiver, the forks were twisted big time. A bit of a pain in the neck back then, but nowadays some guys have jigs for such work.

[F15E_WSO]

Yep, the PPU is the least involved method of repair. But can't find any words or data on why there is none in the country. If the PPU doesn't help then possibly the spring is too strong? Maybe originally for a 9mm barrel?

[F15E_WSO]

Originally Posted by Rick W.

Sometimes folks will change out the button on the side of the magazine because of wear somewhere in the pistol. When I think of magazine height in the pistol kinda refers me to the notch in the magazine or the magazine latch itself, this also refers me to feeding height of cartridges.

The little button as you found out effects the hold open height when the mag is empty. The parameters above can enter into the operation of holdopen as well. I think the little leaf spring's main duty is to hold the holdopen itself down into the frame, until it is overpowered by the magazine. Recoil bounce should not effect the leaf spring's capability or you will get premature stoppages.

New oem buttons for magazines are usually available. Probably cost more than the new after market mag you bought though. I once got a Luger magazine that featured a portion of a bridge spike for the magazine button. The previous owner shaped it nicely and it worked. Have to admire using what you have sometimes, rather than throw money at things, all in the eye of the beholder.

I find the Italian magazines of nice quality, works fine in my Lugers; and mine are not all original anymore, shows the flexibility of their product I think.

You took some measurements, now you know how much bigger the button ought to be to work in your current environment. Sometimes tape can be wrapped around the outer edge, and then measured when things begin to jive.

Ammo is only one parameter of the function equasion. Easy to try I reckon and sometimes does the trick. I once had a previously owned Luger that I could barely pull the toggle train out of the receiver, the forks were twisted big time. A bit of a pain in the neck back then, but nowadays some guys have jigs for such work.

Rick, thanks for the words, I'm going to have to move through this one step at a time. Initally I got some Fiorcchi Soft Tips, the armorer corrected that with me (good guys) and I now have some 7.65 Luger FMJs but the grain is the same, don't think that will solve much really. The Soft Tips did get hung up (as seen in previous photos) but the fact that the toggle isn't left up and open after the last round; each round as I am shooting one at a time, tells me there is more going on here. Bit of research I did had a kit or "service pack" at Wolff springs that was not that expensive that replaces all the springs in the gun. Might get after the leaf spring you mentioned above.

Went to range today (Military Base I live near) and it was closed (?) when normally open on Sundays, closed tomorrow too. Hope to shoot next weekend. Just to put more rounds through the gun--bring it out of hibernation (wishful thinking but improbable). Oh well, life is a marathon, not a sprint. I'll get it sorted.

Oh and my wife said "no shooting rounds into the pool!!?" I thought it was a reasonable way to test the gun? Keep the rounds from harming anyone! Thoughts?

[DonVoigt]

Originally Posted by F15E_WSO

Yep, the PPU is the least involved method of repair. But can't find any words or data on why there is none in the country. If the PPU doesn't help then possibly the spring is too strong? Maybe originally for a 9mm barrel?

There is PPU "in the country". You have been told that it is produced and imported in batches, and gets largely sold out between "batches".

If you want a box or three for $35 each plus $20 ground shipping, I can get it for you.

You just did not sound like you wanted to spend that- but then I recall you are in California, and ammo must go to an ffl dealer, so then the cost goes up even more.

So I guess you just must be patient.
I do not recommend firing into your pool either.

[F15E_WSO]

Originally Posted by DonVoigt

There is PPU "in the country". You have been told that it is produced and imported in batches, and gets largely sold out between "batches".

If you want a box or three for $35 each plus $20 ground shipping, I can get it for you.

You just did not sound like you wanted to spend that- but then I recall you are in California, and ammo must go to an ffl dealer, so then the cost goes up even more.

So I guess you just must be patient.
I do not recommend firing into your pool either.

DonVoigt, was kidding on the pool part. I live in a gated subdivision, people would lose their minds!! HOA would not be happy.
Am in Nevada so not so many restrictions here. Patience I have, generally. Let me see what the FMJs do, get those run through the gun and see. Oddly, the second time I took the gun out, older mag, the gun was ejecting and hold back working when I cupped my left hand and applied pressure to base of mag (slight rise). Not the case with the new Mec-Gar Mag that does provide hold back when toggle is pulled by hand? I need another day at the range to tinker with it some more.

[F15E_WSO]

So PPU bought and inbound. Quick look at the
Fiocchi specs:
Muzzle Velocity is 1190 FPS Muzzle Energy is 290 ft Lbs

PPU specs:
Muzzle Velocity is 1280 FPS Muzzle Energy is 413 ft Lbs

I tried to do some research and see if there was any error in these numbers, the Fiocchi Muzzle Energy varied a bit, but less than 5%

That is a huge delta in muzzle energy so that would explain why the PPU is better at working the toggle and cycling the next round. But is this TOO MUCH energy?
Folks have had good luck with this ammo at 7.65 and the Luger?

How does PPU get such a bigger energy in the same casing as the Fiocchi?

[DonVoigt]

One of the energy numbers is wrong.
There is about 16% more energy at 1280 than at 1190.

I have used many rounds of PPU and Fiocchi, the PPU is just a "little" but enough more energy to function in many lugers.

"How does PPU get such a bigger energy in the same casing as the Fiocchi"
They don't!

[F15E_WSO]

DonVoigt thanks for the endorsement on the PPU, won't get it to the range until early October and hopefully it sets things right and no more messing around with jammed and stove piped casings.

[4 Scale]

I own a total of four .30 Luger pistols. The first one I acquired worked great with Fiocchi. The second had all manner of feeding and ejection issues with Fiocchi; I tried all kinds of mainspring and magazine modifications and it still wouldn't work. PPU completely cured all the issues. I then acquired two more .30 Luger pistols, and tested them with both types of ammo in the hope that they would work well with Fiocchi as it is more available. I learned these next two were also jam-o-matics with Fiocchi but loved PPU. In studying the matter not only is PPU a bit more powerful than Fiocchi, the overall length is also longer which seems to make a big difference in eliminating feeding jams.

So 75% of my .30 Luger pistols insist on PPU. Look forward to hearing how yours performs.

[F15E_WSO]

Originally Posted by 4 Scale

I own a total of four .30 Luger pistols. The first one I acquired worked great with Fiocchi. The second had all manner of feeding and ejection issues with Fiocchi; I tried all kinds of mainspring and magazine modifications and it still wouldn't work. PPU completely cured all the issues. I then acquired two more .30 Luger pistols, and tested them with both types of ammo in the hope that they would work well with Fiocchi as it is more available. I learned these next two were also jam-o-matics with Fiocchi but loved PPU. In studying the matter not only is PPU a bit more powerful than Fiocchi, the overall length is also longer which seems to make a big difference in eliminating feeding jams.

So 75% of my .30 Luger pistols insist on PPU. Look forward to hearing how yours performs.

4 Scale, thanks for the inputs. I was an "Operational Tester" by trade for a while. Glad to have a few more data points indicating that PPU is somehow the magical round that most lugers crave; at least the 7.65s.
I did not know that the overall length is longer than the Fiocchi!? Is this information available in some Tech/Spec sheets from either Manufacturer? I was looking for Ft Lbs and Muzzle Energy last night and data was NOT at vendors websites and any other info I got from Ammo dealers had a bit of variance. I will measure length when the PPU arrives and compare to the Fiocchi and see what my lots say. Cheers

[John Sabato]

One more thing to check with the original magazine that was left out of the "list" above. In my opinion it should be tried first...

Try removing the right grip and check functioning of the hold open with the original magazine. If it operates as it should, it is possible that the original magazine button protrudes ever so slightly more than it should and rubs on the right grip preventing proper operation of the hold open mechanism...

[F15E_WSO]

Originally Posted by John Sabato

One more thing to check with the original magazine that was left out of the "list" above. In my opinion it should be tried first...

Try removing the right grip and check functioning of the hold open with the original magazine. If it operates as it should, it is possible that the original magazine button protrudes ever so slightly more than it should and rubs on the right grip preventing proper operation of the hold open mechanism...

John, a new mag from MecGar solved my hold open problem. I may have gotten that advice in a different thread. This one may have been diverted a bit......
Actioning toggle by hand with an empty mag holds open the toggle 100% of the time now. It is the rounds (Fiocchi) that are not cycling the toggle open enough to lock back on the last round. PPU being shipped now.

[DavidJayUden]

Maybe put some masking tape on the back of the frame where the toggle impacts. After shooting check to see if the tape shows signs of toggle impact. That will help you isolate the problem.
dju

[F15E_WSO]

Originally Posted by DavidJayUden

Maybe put some masking tape on the back of the frame where the toggle impacts. After shooting check to see if the tape shows signs of toggle impact. That will help you isolate the problem.
dju

The tape is in my gun bag, that's on the list as I continue tracking down variables.

[4 Scale]

Originally Posted by F15E_WSO

I did not know that the overall length is longer than the Fiocchi!?

The information was mentioned to me by forum member G.T. who is expert in many areas of Luger function, especially anything to do with magazines. I had asked him to help troubleshoot why the pistol would not function with Fiocchi. After receiving his information, I measured several rounds from both manufacturers and confirmed that yep, PPU is longer.

[F15E_WSO]

Originally Posted by 4 Scale

The information was mentioned to me by forum member G.T. who is expert in many areas of Luger function, especially anything to do with magazines. I had asked him to help troubleshoot why the pistol would not function with Fiocchi. After receiving his information, I measured several rounds from both manufacturers and confirmed that yep, PPU is longer.

I've got a digital micrometer I use in other hobbies, will do another measurement of the two brands, post the results here. May not be same results others get but will be SAME micrometer comparing the two brands.