Testing various types of gun oil - Page 2

Steinar · 02-14-2007, 08:00 AM

Great contribution to the test Chris!

..I was thinking.. if some oils turn out with the same 'perfect' condition after two weeks, we could extend the test period to separate 'winners'.
I will try to update regularly with pictures, so we could then decide to extend test period or not.

Sieger · 02-14-2007, 08:36 PM

Hi:

A year or so ago, there was an extensive article, in on of the gun rags regarding oils. They tried everything!

The conclusion was that CLP was the best, readily available, oil, preservative.

The stuff might be good, but I can't stand the smell of it. To me it is sickening sweet

Sieger

shadow · 02-15-2007, 10:27 AM

Bottle #11 lithium grease

Bottle # 12 Black Bear PAR-AL-Ketone

Click here for info on the black bear

I hope to ship it today or tomorrow.

Thanks,

Chris

LugerVern · 02-17-2007, 10:58 AM

I think doing an independent test on typical preservatives is a great idea, what you find may be very different than what is advertised by the makers.

I have a great deal of lab technician experience in analyzing lubricants for the various nuclear industries. We built a multi million dollar independent testing lab because some of the technical information being supplied was bogus.

One of the main reasons that preservatives and lubricating oils fail to preserve is that they are hygroscopic (they attract water). Overtime the water reacts with the various chemicals and impurities and forms acids which attack the metals forming rust and at times pitting. This reaction may take quite some time to setup and is dependent on temperature, humidity and the surface composition youÃ¢??re using it on. For example many collectible guns have a light rust coating almost a browning, some are salt bath blued and of course some are rust blued; each of these surfaces has a different chemical composition or way of bonding and will form rust and pitting differently.

With that said, synthetic oils are rarely good long term preservatives (notice I said long term). The reason is that they absorb water at an alarming rate, most fail water absorption testing if left out in the open air for more than a few hours. Many of your more common over the counter synthetic oils fail in 30 minutes or less!

Now imagine coating your gun in synthetic oil and placing it in storage!

Everyone has an opinion on what is best; after 3 years of controlled lab testing, I clean the guns I regularly touch, frequently and use good quality old fashion gun oil and feel pretty confident.

I hope this information will be useful to some of you

I talk too much and will close now

Vern

shadow · 02-22-2007, 03:59 PM

Steinar,

Did you get any of the samples yet? Mine should be there any day.
I put a suprise in the package. I hope you like it.

Let me know when you get it.

Chris

Steinar · 02-23-2007, 03:08 AM

Chris, as per today, I have received the samples from G. van Vlimmeren and 76Vette. Yours will probably arrive shortly.. A surprise? I hope it arrives today then

Last weekend I was 'home' in Leksvik, and took the plane down again to Oslo the following Monday. Without thinking.. Being used to the good old days.. I had 5 boxes of oil in my luggage.

Naturally they where found during the safety inspection, a polite inspectors informed me that they where illegal on planes

..I'm the idiot in this little story.. The boxes found their way into the garbage can. But I'm hoping, that in the end of the day, one of safety inspectors picked them up, because their doing a great job! Sad that such jobs are needed today..

Anyway, I will still be able to add about 4 different oils.

Will come with an update when things are ready

btw. I appreciate your informative input LugerVern

..talk to much uh? Don't think the forum would be much fun if all sat quiet

davidkachel · 02-23-2007, 10:54 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by LugerVern
One of the main reasons that preservatives and lubricating oils fail to preserve is that they are hygroscopic (they attract water). Overtime the water reacts with the various chemicals and impurities and forms acids which attack the metals forming rust and at times pitting.
Vern

That is very interesting. I had no idea. Which lubricating oils did your tests show to be the best?

davidkachel · 02-23-2007, 10:56 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Morgan Kane
Without thinking.. Being used to the good old days.. I had 5 boxes of oil in my luggage.

Steinar,

Tsk, tsk... everybody knows you're not supposed to fly when you're oiled! <grin>

Steinar · 03-07-2007, 12:09 PM

Here is the day 1 picture, taken yesterday.
Was a little to ambitious about the friction test

, so will drop that idea for now.. However, I have saved the cleaning patches for a second test later, to see if the results are consistent. Perhaps a metal bar placed outdoors, with the areas separated with tape ..or something like that

Btw. Kroil and some other oils (the types that where taken at the airport) will join the test later on, I have saved some of the salt water solution for that. They will be 1, 2 or 3 weeks delayed but hopefully under similar conditions.

1. Aeroshell 2F
2. WD-40
3. Mobil 1
4. Aluma Guard
5. Rem oil
6. Hoppies oil
7. Militec 1
8. Break Free LP
9. Brownells Steinless Slick
10. RIG +P Steinless stell
11. Lihium grease
12. Black Bear PAR-AL-Ketone
(thanks Chris!)
13. Dutch oil
14. Swiss grease
(thanks G. van. Vlimmeren!)
15. ATF Fluid
16. FP10
(thanks 76Vette!)
17. Eezok
18. Glen Boore
19. ---no oil---

Steinar · 03-08-2007, 02:48 PM

Here we go

This is the results after one day (24 hours). Think I can say for sure that this calls for a second test later on, glad I kept those patches

Used one tee spoon of salt in two liters (just under a gallon), but this was probably way too much. Tried to add the oil equally over the metal pieces, still there might be spots with less oil.

davidkachel · 03-08-2007, 02:54 PM

Hoppe's looks particularly surprising and disappointing.

Steinar · 03-08-2007, 03:37 PM

Almost seem as if some of the oils solves out in water and therefore have no/little effect..?

I'm thinking metal pipe on the second try, placed outdoors in snow/rain instead.

..also find it strange that the one without oil is 50% free of rust (no idea why.. it was well cleaned all over)

davidkachel · 03-08-2007, 03:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Morgan Kane
..also find it strange that the one without oil is 50% free of rust (no idea why.. it was well cleaned all over)

Actually I think I can explain that one. Some years ago I did considerable photographic research and published a number of articles concerning my results.
Not to bore you with the details; metals and salts of metals begin reactions at focal points, usually points of microscopic defect. As reactions occur in other places, electrons tend to get "handed off" from new areas of reaction to areas where reactions are already occuring.
This feeds the old areas of reaction from potential new areas and therefore new areas are created more slowly than they might be otherwise.
Think of it as having to break a threshold and once that threshold is broken, reaction is going to speed there and slow elsewhere.
You may find that the depth of rust is a bit greater on the metal without oil than on samples with oil and the same apparent amount of surface rust.

shadow · 03-08-2007, 05:42 PM

Is the brown on #12 rust or the "Bear fat" smeared on. I notice it still has the brownish color as the initial photo.

Have you tried the tool yet?

Steinar · 03-09-2007, 02:33 AM

Yes, with the oil I used a patch, but with the grease I used my finger tips to smear it out, to have it as equal over the piece as possible.. (used paintwork solvent to clean finger tips between each sample). On a larger surface such as on a pipe, I think a patch will be best. As to the #12, I think the colour is NOT rust, but traces of the grease itself.. I'm at work now, have a more detailed startup picture at home. So I will check it out

No need for the tool yet, but I'm sure I will need it very soon. Truly great

those mainsprings have been flying around and causing all sorts of trouble, thanks again

Vlim · 03-09-2007, 09:52 AM

Nice test. The old Swiss grease seems to work better than I expected. Dutch oil looks not too good

Vlim · 03-09-2007, 09:52 AM

Nice test. The old Swiss grease seems to work better than I expected. Dutch oil looks not too good

Steinar · 03-09-2007, 02:40 PM

Chris; yes, it's the grease, not rust

This is the results after day two;

LugerVern · 03-09-2007, 07:05 PM

Off to an interesting start I see!

David is correct about the micro fractures; when you broke the blade or when it was serrated tiny cracks formed; this sets up galvanic corrosion especially in an electrolyte like salt water.

I am always so disappointed in Rem Oil and HoppeÃ¢??s in adverse environmentsÃ¢??sad

We know Break Free should do well, I am very interested in Mobil 1 and the ATF so far they look pretty good, it may take along time before you see something happen to some of your samples.

WD40 was designed to displace water but because of its solvent abilities is usually not recommend for old guns especially those that have brown rust finish, it will not harm guns in good condition, I have not tested ATF in rust removal but Mobil 1 is just as aggressive at dissolving rust as WD40 maybe more, it is detergent oil after all.

After you settle on your best preservatives, as a finial reality check, I would like to suggest getting the MSDS (material safety data sheet) on each and doing a comparison. It is next to impossible to handle your guns, let alone shoot them with out getting some of that preservative on your hands.

In other words, what good is that rust free gun if youÃ¢??re dead or canÃ¢??t remember where you put it?

My brother-in-law currently suffers from loss of short term memory, like in the movie (50 First Dates), funny movie but not funny in real life. His sickness is a result of small amounts of chemical exposure over a long period of years, he may never recover.

Just a Suggestion.

Vern

Steinar · 03-10-2007, 03:46 AM

Thanks for the informative information David and Vern. I support the tiny fracture theory created by cracking the blades. Perhaps also the tiny 'impact' of hitting the bottom of the cup can be enough to 'whip' off the oil in that area (like the #17)?

jupp.. here is todays picture;

02-14-2007, 08:00 AM	#21
Steinar User Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 1,538 Thanks: 18 Thanked 36 Times in 21 Posts	Great contribution to the test Chris! ..I was thinking.. if some oils turn out with the same 'perfect' condition after two weeks, we could extend the test period to separate 'winners'. I will try to update regularly with pictures, so we could then decide to extend test period or not. __________________ Previously known as Morgan Kane

02-14-2007, 08:36 PM	#22
Sieger User Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: New York, NY Posts: 1,575 Thanks: 2,124 Thanked 400 Times in 249 Posts	Oils Hi: A year or so ago, there was an extensive article, in on of the gun rags regarding oils. They tried everything! The conclusion was that CLP was the best, readily available, oil, preservative. The stuff might be good, but I can't stand the smell of it. To me it is sickening sweet Sieger

02-15-2007, 10:27 AM	#23
shadow User Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Down The Shore Posts: 245 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Bottle #11 lithium grease Bottle # 12 Black Bear PAR-AL-Ketone Click here for info on the black bear I hope to ship it today or tomorrow. Thanks, Chris __________________ The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good. George Washington

02-22-2007, 03:59 PM	#25
shadow User Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Down The Shore Posts: 245 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Steinar, Did you get any of the samples yet? Mine should be there any day. I put a suprise in the package. I hope you like it. Let me know when you get it. Chris __________________ The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good. George Washington

02-23-2007, 03:08 AM	#26
Steinar User Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 1,538 Thanks: 18 Thanked 36 Times in 21 Posts	Chris, as per today, I have received the samples from G. van Vlimmeren and 76Vette. Yours will probably arrive shortly.. A surprise? I hope it arrives today then Last weekend I was 'home' in Leksvik, and took the plane down again to Oslo the following Monday. Without thinking.. Being used to the good old days.. I had 5 boxes of oil in my luggage. Naturally they where found during the safety inspection, a polite inspectors informed me that they where illegal on planes ..I'm the idiot in this little story.. The boxes found their way into the garbage can. But I'm hoping, that in the end of the day, one of safety inspectors picked them up, because their doing a great job! Sad that such jobs are needed today.. Anyway, I will still be able to add about 4 different oils. Will come with an update when things are ready btw. I appreciate your informative input LugerVern ..talk to much uh? Don't think the forum would be much fun if all sat quiet __________________ Previously known as Morgan Kane

02-17-2007, 10:58 AM	#24
LugerVern User Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Virginia Posts: 563 Thanks: 1 Thanked 34 Times in 27 Posts	I think doing an independent test on typical preservatives is a great idea, what you find may be very different than what is advertised by the makers. I have a great deal of lab technician experience in analyzing lubricants for the various nuclear industries. We built a multi million dollar independent testing lab because some of the technical information being supplied was bogus. One of the main reasons that preservatives and lubricating oils fail to preserve is that they are hygroscopic (they attract water). Overtime the water reacts with the various chemicals and impurities and forms acids which attack the metals forming rust and at times pitting. This reaction may take quite some time to setup and is dependent on temperature, humidity and the surface composition youÃ¢??re using it on. For example many collectible guns have a light rust coating almost a browning, some are salt bath blued and of course some are rust blued; each of these surfaces has a different chemical composition or way of bonding and will form rust and pitting differently. With that said, synthetic oils are rarely good long term preservatives (notice I said long term). The reason is that they absorb water at an alarming rate, most fail water absorption testing if left out in the open air for more than a few hours. Many of your more common over the counter synthetic oils fail in 30 minutes or less! Now imagine coating your gun in synthetic oil and placing it in storage! Everyone has an opinion on what is best; after 3 years of controlled lab testing, I clean the guns I regularly touch, frequently and use good quality old fashion gun oil and feel pretty confident. I hope this information will be useful to some of you I talk too much and will close now Vern

03-07-2007, 12:09 PM	#29
Steinar User Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 1,538 Thanks: 18 Thanked 36 Times in 21 Posts	Here is the day 1 picture, taken yesterday. Was a little to ambitious about the friction test , so will drop that idea for now.. However, I have saved the cleaning patches for a second test later, to see if the results are consistent. Perhaps a metal bar placed outdoors, with the areas separated with tape ..or something like that Btw. Kroil and some other oils (the types that where taken at the airport) will join the test later on, I have saved some of the salt water solution for that. They will be 1, 2 or 3 weeks delayed but hopefully under similar conditions. 1. Aeroshell 2F 2. WD-40 3. Mobil 1 4. Aluma Guard 5. Rem oil 6. Hoppies oil 7. Militec 1 8. Break Free LP 9. Brownells Steinless Slick 10. RIG +P Steinless stell 11. Lihium grease 12. Black Bear PAR-AL-Ketone (thanks Chris!) 13. Dutch oil 14. Swiss grease (thanks G. van. Vlimmeren!) 15. ATF Fluid 16. FP10 (thanks 76Vette!) 17. Eezok 18. Glen Boore 19. ---no oil--- __________________ Previously known as Morgan Kane

03-08-2007, 02:48 PM	#30
Steinar User Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 1,538 Thanks: 18 Thanked 36 Times in 21 Posts	Here we go This is the results after one day (24 hours). Think I can say for sure that this calls for a second test later on, glad I kept those patches Used one tee spoon of salt in two liters (just under a gallon), but this was probably way too much. Tried to add the oil equally over the metal pieces, still there might be spots with less oil. For closer pictures, clink on the link under the product name; 1. Aeroshell 2F http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/1_1.jpg 2. WD-40 http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/2_1.jpg 3. Mobil 1 http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/3_1.jpg 4. Aluma Guard http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/4_1.jpg 5. Rem oil http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/5_1.jpg 6. Hoppies oil http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/6_1.jpg 7. Militec 1 http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/7_1.jpg 8. Break Free LP http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/8_1.jpg 9. Brownells Stainless Slick http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/9_1.jpg 10. RIG +P Steinless stell http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/10_1.jpg 11. Lihium grease http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/11_1.jpg 12. Black Bear PAR-AL-Ketone http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/12_1.jpg 13. Dutch oil http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/13_1.jpg 14. Swiss grease http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/14_1.jpg 15. ATF Fluid http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/15_1.jpg 16. FP10 http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/16_1.jpg 17. Eezok http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/17_1.jpg 18. Glen Boore http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/18_1.jpg 19. ---no oil--- http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/19_1.jpg __________________ Previously known as Morgan Kane

03-08-2007, 02:54 PM	#31
davidkachel User Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Texas Posts: 784 Thanks: 0 Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts	Hoppe's looks particularly surprising and disappointing. __________________ A heroin habit would be cheaper.

03-08-2007, 03:37 PM	#32
Steinar User Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 1,538 Thanks: 18 Thanked 36 Times in 21 Posts	Almost seem as if some of the oils solves out in water and therefore have no/little effect..? I'm thinking metal pipe on the second try, placed outdoors in snow/rain instead. ..also find it strange that the one without oil is 50% free of rust (no idea why.. it was well cleaned all over) __________________ Previously known as Morgan Kane

03-08-2007, 05:42 PM	#34
shadow User Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Down The Shore Posts: 245 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Is the brown on #12 rust or the "Bear fat" smeared on. I notice it still has the brownish color as the initial photo. Have you tried the tool yet? __________________ The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good. George Washington

03-09-2007, 02:33 AM	#35
Steinar User Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 1,538 Thanks: 18 Thanked 36 Times in 21 Posts	Yes, with the oil I used a patch, but with the grease I used my finger tips to smear it out, to have it as equal over the piece as possible.. (used paintwork solvent to clean finger tips between each sample). On a larger surface such as on a pipe, I think a patch will be best. As to the #12, I think the colour is NOT rust, but traces of the grease itself.. I'm at work now, have a more detailed startup picture at home. So I will check it out No need for the tool yet, but I'm sure I will need it very soon. Truly great those mainsprings have been flying around and causing all sorts of trouble, thanks again __________________ Previously known as Morgan Kane

03-09-2007, 09:52 AM	#36
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,031 Thanks: 1,018 Thanked 3,873 Times in 1,184 Posts	Nice test. The old Swiss grease seems to work better than I expected. Dutch oil looks not too good

03-09-2007, 02:40 PM	#38
Steinar User Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 1,538 Thanks: 18 Thanked 36 Times in 21 Posts	Chris; yes, it's the grease, not rust This is the results after day two; 1. Aeroshell 2F http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/1_2.jpg 2. WD-40 http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/2_2.jpg 3. Mobil 1 http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/3_2.jpg 4. Aluma Guard http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/4_2.jpg 5. Rem oil http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/5_2.jpg 6. Hoppies oil http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/6_2.jpg 7. Militec 1 http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/7_2.jpg 8. Break Free LP http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/8_2.jpg 9. Brownells Stainless Slick http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/9_2.jpg 10. RIG +P Steinless stell http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/10_2.jpg 11. Lihium grease http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/11_2.jpg 12. Black Bear PAR-AL-Ketone http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/12_2.jpg 13. Dutch oil http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/13_2.jpg 14. Swiss grease http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/14_2.jpg 15. ATF Fluid http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/15_2.jpg 16. FP10 http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/16_2.jpg 17. Eezok http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/17_2.jpg 18. Glen Boore http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/18_2.jpg 19. ---no oil--- http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/19_2.jpg __________________ Previously known as Morgan Kane

03-09-2007, 07:05 PM	#39
LugerVern User Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Virginia Posts: 563 Thanks: 1 Thanked 34 Times in 27 Posts	Off to an interesting start I see! David is correct about the micro fractures; when you broke the blade or when it was serrated tiny cracks formed; this sets up galvanic corrosion especially in an electrolyte like salt water. I am always so disappointed in Rem Oil and HoppeÃ¢??s in adverse environmentsÃ¢??sad We know Break Free should do well, I am very interested in Mobil 1 and the ATF so far they look pretty good, it may take along time before you see something happen to some of your samples. WD40 was designed to displace water but because of its solvent abilities is usually not recommend for old guns especially those that have brown rust finish, it will not harm guns in good condition, I have not tested ATF in rust removal but Mobil 1 is just as aggressive at dissolving rust as WD40 maybe more, it is detergent oil after all. After you settle on your best preservatives, as a finial reality check, I would like to suggest getting the MSDS (material safety data sheet) on each and doing a comparison. It is next to impossible to handle your guns, let alone shoot them with out getting some of that preservative on your hands. In other words, what good is that rust free gun if youÃ¢??re dead or canÃ¢??t remember where you put it? My brother-in-law currently suffers from loss of short term memory, like in the movie (50 First Dates), funny movie but not funny in real life. His sickness is a result of small amounts of chemical exposure over a long period of years, he may never recover. Just a Suggestion. Vern

03-10-2007, 03:46 AM	#40
Steinar User Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 1,538 Thanks: 18 Thanked 36 Times in 21 Posts	Thanks for the informative information David and Vern. I support the tiny fracture theory created by cracking the blades. Perhaps also the tiny 'impact' of hitting the bottom of the cup can be enough to 'whip' off the oil in that area (like the #17)? jupp.. here is todays picture; __________________ Previously known as Morgan Kane