A M1900 Bulgarian

Apostolos · 07-22-2004, 07:59 AM

I found a very rare bulgarian M1900 7,65cal [a cyrillic orbib instead of fire] in a very good condition s.n 20206 all matching numbers except magazine but someone wanted? to erase the straw colour from the parts must have it.Also there is some brown patina in 25% of the surface.No pitting at all.I have 3 questions:How to restraw the parts,will it be correct or not to reblue it?[I want strongly to do this],where can I find a magazine of the same era? Sorry for my English.

Dwight Gruber · 07-22-2004, 09:47 AM

Apostolos,

This sounds like a very interesting gun. It would be good to see photographs. I am sure that you will find other collectors who share my opinion, that this Luger will be more valuable with its original finish than it would if re-blued. Straw is a very fragile finish, and it is very common for it to just fade away. There are experts here who can tell you how to restore this finish if you wish.

I am doing a survey of early Lugers, and this piece is a new one to me. Would it be possible to tell me the following things:

Are there any proof marks on the gun?

Is there a Swiss cross on the left side of the barrel?

Does the grip safety go halfway across the rear grip strap, or all the way across?

Does the thumb safety have grooves or crosshatches?

Where does the serial number appear on the takedown lever?

Is GERMANY stamped anywhere on the gun?

Congratulations on owning a rare Luger, and thank you in advance for the additional information.

--Dwight

John Sabato · 07-22-2004, 10:48 AM

sillektis

Welcome to the Lugerforum... you have no need to apologize for your English... just do the best that you can, and we will do the best we can to understand you. I doubt that there are many members who could possibly communicate in Greek as well as you do in English.

Please post photographs of your rare Bulgarian Luger. If you need help, just ask... and we shall help you.

Apostolos · 07-22-2004, 03:19 PM

Dwight, There are not proof marks at all except the bulgarian crest over chamber,DWM on toggle and cyrillic safety mark.There is no cross on the left side of the barrel.The grip safety goes all the way across the rear grip strap[as I remember because I am in a trip].The thumb safety has grooves.The s.n appears on the back sight ob the takedown lever.There is nowhere stamped GERMANY on the gun.The gun is an original M1900 bulgarian,so why the swiss cross,the crosshatches and the GERMANY stamp? Regards,-Apostolos

Pete Ebbink · 07-22-2004, 07:18 PM

Hello Apostolos,

I think Dwight asked about the type of surface on the thumb safety lever to help identify what might be one yours, type 1, 2, or 3...see these photos to show more :

The Swiss luger production was the first contract delivery DWM made in the early 1900's. All of these Swiss luger had numerous little Swiss cross "proof" marks stamped on gun parts, including the left side of the barrel. Some other M1900 luger (such as commerical and AE) have appeared with barrels with the Swiss cross marking. This implies that some barrels were extra and left over and used on other contract lugers (and so possibly, your Bulgarian...).

Here is a photo of the Swiss cross on the left side of a luger barrel :

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

George Anderson · 07-22-2004, 08:48 PM

I have to think we are talking about a 1906.

Ron Wood · 07-22-2004, 08:56 PM

George,
With a serial number of 20206 it would still be a 1900. The 1906 serial numbers started somewhere around 25100.

Apostolos,
I agree with Dwight, if the Bulgarian you have found is all matching and original, it would be a big mistake to refinish it. I may be very wrong in my numbers, but in my opinion you would be taking a gun that is worth close to $9000 and reducing it down to a value of $3000 to $3500. A proper magazine for this Luger would be an unmarked, un-numbered wooden base commercial type magazine.

Imperial Arms · 07-22-2004, 11:28 PM

Gentlemen,

A few months ago, I had received some images of Apostolos's M1900 Bulgarian Luger which meets all the specifications of a M1900 Bulgarian Luger. It has the correct safety marking, and there are no proof marks on his pistol. I can post images under this topic if Apostolos gives me persmission.

Based on a prior post regarding this Luger which was described as near mint, I was saddened to discover that the pistol only had average condition after I received the images. It is a difficult choice whether the pistol should be left alone or offered a professional restoration. It appears that an improper product or oil could have been used on this pistol which affected the blue and strawed parts.

Albert

Ron Wood · 07-23-2004, 01:54 AM

I am somewhat at a loss to accept that a 1900 Bulgarian that is in "only average condition" should be considered for a professional restoration. Considering that there were only perhaps 500 to 1000 of these early Bulgarian contract Lugers produced, many of which have been lost to attrition and a majority of the surviving examples converted to 9mm (as were the equally scarce 1906 examples), to find an unaltered 7.65 specimen at all is a relative rarity in the collecting field and "only average condition" doesn't seem to apply.

I have observed that European collectors are not as reluctant to restore firearms as their "purist" US counterpart. I do not necessarilly side with either camp across the board. However, I do tend to believe that a really rare piece that lacks significant (you use your standard as to what is "significant") pitting and retains better than 90% to 95% original finish should under no circumstance be subjected to a cosmetic upgrade just to make it prettier in one's display case.

I do not shun acquiring a restored rare item at a reasonable price since with my modest resources I may never be able to own any other example for my collection. However, I believe that the standard should be that a rare piece should not be restored unless it was in such a deplorable condition that much of its intrinsic worth as a historical item has been lost.

I remain of the opinion that if this 1900 Bulgarian is matching and original, it should not be restored. Perhaps photographs will change my mind.

Respectfully submitted,
Ron

Dwight Gruber · 07-23-2004, 02:05 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by sillektis:
The gun is an original M1900 bulgarian,so why the swiss cross,the crosshatches and the GERMANY stamp?<hr /></blockquote>Apostolos,

I am engaged in surveying the range of Commercial Lugers from serial# 1 through approximately 76000. These characteristics are understandably not on your Luger, but I am looking for all these characteristics which appear in various combinations on different models, without preconception, to get a complete picture of Commercial Luger evolution. One never knows what will crop up on any given Luger, as an unusual, previously unknown, or anomalous characteristic.

I will eventually publish this material on these forums, thanks very much for the addition of your Luger's data.

--Dwight

Imperial Arms · 07-23-2004, 03:26 AM

Hello Ron,

Until I have the permission to post the images from the owner, I would estimate that the pistol has about 60%-70% original condition with some light patina. The grips on the pistol are in good to very good condition.

I appreciate your patience.

Cheers,
Albert

Apostolos · 07-23-2004, 09:07 AM

Hello Albert,I am very glad to hear you,but somewhat I thought that you are living in Germany.It will be a great help for me if you can post the images under this topic.Thank you for your patience.Apostolos. I must ask excuse from Dwight because I forgot that "I only know one thing,that I know nothing"SOCRATES. Many thanks to Ron Wood and to Pete Ebbink.

John Sabato · 07-23-2004, 10:01 AM

Albert, I will give you a 50 percent discount on your invoice this month

if you would please post the images of Apostolos' Bulgarian... we are all anxious to see it.

Let's see... $0.00 X 50 percent = $0.00 (please check my math to be sure Albert)

Imperial Arms · 07-23-2004, 03:08 PM

Hereunder are the images of the M1900 Bulgarian Luger serial #20206 which I have permission from the owner to post on this forum:

Comments are welcome.

John Sabato · 07-23-2004, 03:34 PM

Please don't refinish it Apostolos... IMHO it would reduce it's value dramatically.

Congrats on a fine rare Luger! How do you imagine that this Luger has survived 104 years with such little wear on it's finish? Do you have any information on the ownership or use of this pistol? If pistols could only talk.

Apostolos · 07-23-2004, 05:04 PM

Thank you Mr. Beliard for your help and I have a question for you and Mr. Sabato:I noticed that the strawcolour was erased by something like sandpaper.Whats your opinion about to restraw them,and if the magazines for 9mm and 7,65mm are the same.Many thanks to Mr. Sabato for his interest.I will try to learn about the story of this Luger in my next travel in Bulgaria.

Hugh · 07-23-2004, 08:44 PM

Apostolos,

<img border="0" alt="[soapbox]" title="" src="graemlins/soapbox.gif" /> Please excuse me for buttin in, but if that were my gun, I would not do anything to it but wipe it down with an oily cloth and put it in the safe. In my humble opinion any attempt to reblue or restraw will greatly lower the value. <img border="0" alt="[nono]" title="" src="graemlins/nono.gif" />

Hugh

Pete Ebbink · 07-23-2004, 08:59 PM

Okay...here is a test question... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

What markings will one (or both ?) sides of the extractor on this M1900 Bulgarian display ?

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

Ron Wood · 07-23-2004, 09:52 PM

None. Only the later "new model" (1906 and 1908) extractors are marked.

Apostolos,
I do not think restrawing the parts would be advisable. They would look "artificial" compared to the remainder of the Luger, which is obviously original and quite nice. The 7.65 and 9mm magazines are identical. Some magazines for the 1902 and 1906 model Lugers are marked "Cal 9mm" on the wooden bottom, but they are still dimensionally identical to the 7.65mm magazines.

G.T. · 07-23-2004, 11:09 PM

Ookee Dokee! I think the we are all in agreement that restoring or refinishing, is, or would be, detrimental to the overall value of the gun,.. BUT, how about parts replacement?? It would seem that 1900 straw parts that are replaceable would add considerably to the value of this unique collectable... what do you think? It comes down to correct vs. original??? til...lat'r...GT

07-22-2004, 07:59 AM	#1
Apostolos User Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Thessaloniki- Greece Posts: 16 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	A M1900 Bulgarian I found a very rare bulgarian M1900 7,65cal [a cyrillic orbib instead of fire] in a very good condition s.n 20206 all matching numbers except magazine but someone wanted? to erase the straw colour from the parts must have it.Also there is some brown patina in 25% of the surface.No pitting at all.I have 3 questions:How to restraw the parts,will it be correct or not to reblue it?[I want strongly to do this],where can I find a magazine of the same era? Sorry for my English. __________________ I only know one thing,that I know nothing.SOCRATES.

07-22-2004, 10:48 AM	#3
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,152 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	sillektis Welcome to the Lugerforum... you have no need to apologize for your English... just do the best that you can, and we will do the best we can to understand you. I doubt that there are many members who could possibly communicate in Greek as well as you do in English. Please post photographs of your rare Bulgarian Luger. If you need help, just ask... and we shall help you. __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

07-22-2004, 03:19 PM	#4
Apostolos User Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Thessaloniki- Greece Posts: 16 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Dwight, There are not proof marks at all except the bulgarian crest over chamber,DWM on toggle and cyrillic safety mark.There is no cross on the left side of the barrel.The grip safety goes all the way across the rear grip strap[as I remember because I am in a trip].The thumb safety has grooves.The s.n appears on the back sight ob the takedown lever.There is nowhere stamped GERMANY on the gun.The gun is an original M1900 bulgarian,so why the swiss cross,the crosshatches and the GERMANY stamp? Regards,-Apostolos __________________ I only know one thing,that I know nothing.SOCRATES.

07-22-2004, 08:56 PM	#7
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,988 Thanks: 1,067 Thanked 5,099 Times in 1,676 Posts	George, With a serial number of 20206 it would still be a 1900. The 1906 serial numbers started somewhere around 25100. Apostolos, I agree with Dwight, if the Bulgarian you have found is all matching and original, it would be a big mistake to refinish it. I may be very wrong in my numbers, but in my opinion you would be taking a gun that is worth close to $9000 and reducing it down to a value of $3000 to $3500. A proper magazine for this Luger would be an unmarked, un-numbered wooden base commercial type magazine. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

07-23-2004, 01:54 AM	#9
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,988 Thanks: 1,067 Thanked 5,099 Times in 1,676 Posts	I am somewhat at a loss to accept that a 1900 Bulgarian that is in "only average condition" should be considered for a professional restoration. Considering that there were only perhaps 500 to 1000 of these early Bulgarian contract Lugers produced, many of which have been lost to attrition and a majority of the surviving examples converted to 9mm (as were the equally scarce 1906 examples), to find an unaltered 7.65 specimen at all is a relative rarity in the collecting field and "only average condition" doesn't seem to apply. I have observed that European collectors are not as reluctant to restore firearms as their "purist" US counterpart. I do not necessarilly side with either camp across the board. However, I do tend to believe that a really rare piece that lacks significant (you use your standard as to what is "significant") pitting and retains better than 90% to 95% original finish should under no circumstance be subjected to a cosmetic upgrade just to make it prettier in one's display case. I do not shun acquiring a restored rare item at a reasonable price since with my modest resources I may never be able to own any other example for my collection. However, I believe that the standard should be that a rare piece should not be restored unless it was in such a deplorable condition that much of its intrinsic worth as a historical item has been lost. I remain of the opinion that if this 1900 Bulgarian is matching and original, it should not be restored. Perhaps photographs will change my mind. Respectfully submitted, Ron __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

07-22-2004, 09:47 AM	#2
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,890 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,282 Times in 424 Posts	Apostolos, This sounds like a very interesting gun. It would be good to see photographs. I am sure that you will find other collectors who share my opinion, that this Luger will be more valuable with its original finish than it would if re-blued. Straw is a very fragile finish, and it is very common for it to just fade away. There are experts here who can tell you how to restore this finish if you wish. I am doing a survey of early Lugers, and this piece is a new one to me. Would it be possible to tell me the following things: Are there any proof marks on the gun? Is there a Swiss cross on the left side of the barrel? Does the grip safety go halfway across the rear grip strap, or all the way across? Does the thumb safety have grooves or crosshatches? Where does the serial number appear on the takedown lever? Is GERMANY stamped anywhere on the gun? Congratulations on owning a rare Luger, and thank you in advance for the additional information. --Dwight

07-22-2004, 07:18 PM	#5
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Hello Apostolos, I think Dwight asked about the type of surface on the thumb safety lever to help identify what might be one yours, type 1, 2, or 3...see these photos to show more : The Swiss luger production was the first contract delivery DWM made in the early 1900's. All of these Swiss luger had numerous little Swiss cross "proof" marks stamped on gun parts, including the left side of the barrel. Some other M1900 luger (such as commerical and AE) have appeared with barrels with the Swiss cross marking. This implies that some barrels were extra and left over and used on other contract lugers (and so possibly, your Bulgarian...). Here is a photo of the Swiss cross on the left side of a luger barrel : Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

07-22-2004, 08:48 PM	#6
George Anderson Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: VA Posts: 3,592 Thanks: 1,773 Thanked 2,527 Times in 786 Posts	I have to think we are talking about a 1906.

07-22-2004, 11:28 PM	#8
Imperial Arms Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Malta, EU Posts: 579 Thanks: 0 Thanked 7 Times in 7 Posts	Gentlemen, A few months ago, I had received some images of Apostolos's M1900 Bulgarian Luger which meets all the specifications of a M1900 Bulgarian Luger. It has the correct safety marking, and there are no proof marks on his pistol. I can post images under this topic if Apostolos gives me persmission. Based on a prior post regarding this Luger which was described as near mint, I was saddened to discover that the pistol only had average condition after I received the images. It is a difficult choice whether the pistol should be left alone or offered a professional restoration. It appears that an improper product or oil could have been used on this pistol which affected the blue and strawed parts. Albert

07-23-2004, 02:05 AM	#10
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,890 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,282 Times in 424 Posts	</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by sillektis: <strong>The gun is an original M1900 bulgarian,so why the swiss cross,the crosshatches and the GERMANY stamp?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Apostolos, I am engaged in surveying the range of Commercial Lugers from serial# 1 through approximately 76000. These characteristics are understandably not on your Luger, but I am looking for all these characteristics which appear in various combinations on different models, without preconception, to get a complete picture of Commercial Luger evolution. One never knows what will crop up on any given Luger, as an unusual, previously unknown, or anomalous characteristic. I will eventually publish this material on these forums, thanks very much for the addition of your Luger's data. --Dwight

07-23-2004, 03:26 AM	#11
Imperial Arms Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Malta, EU Posts: 579 Thanks: 0 Thanked 7 Times in 7 Posts	Hello Ron, Until I have the permission to post the images from the owner, I would estimate that the pistol has about 60%-70% original condition with some light patina. The grips on the pistol are in good to very good condition. I appreciate your patience. Cheers, Albert

07-23-2004, 09:07 AM	#12
Apostolos User Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Thessaloniki- Greece Posts: 16 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Hello Albert,I am very glad to hear you,but somewhat I thought that you are living in Germany.It will be a great help for me if you can post the images under this topic.Thank you for your patience.Apostolos. I must ask excuse from Dwight because I forgot that "I only know one thing,that I know nothing"SOCRATES. Many thanks to Ron Wood and to Pete Ebbink. __________________ I only know one thing,that I know nothing.SOCRATES.

07-23-2004, 10:01 AM	#13
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,152 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	Albert, I will give you a 50 percent discount on your invoice this month if you would please post the images of Apostolos' Bulgarian... we are all anxious to see it. Let's see... $0.00 X 50 percent = $0.00 (please check my math to be sure Albert) __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

07-23-2004, 03:08 PM	#14
Imperial Arms Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Malta, EU Posts: 579 Thanks: 0 Thanked 7 Times in 7 Posts	Hereunder are the images of the M1900 Bulgarian Luger serial #20206 which I have permission from the owner to post on this forum: Comments are welcome.

07-23-2004, 03:34 PM	#15
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,152 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	Please don't refinish it Apostolos... IMHO it would reduce it's value dramatically. Congrats on a fine rare Luger! How do you imagine that this Luger has survived 104 years with such little wear on it's finish? Do you have any information on the ownership or use of this pistol? If pistols could only talk. __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

07-23-2004, 05:04 PM	#16
Apostolos User Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Thessaloniki- Greece Posts: 16 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thank you Mr. Beliard for your help and I have a question for you and Mr. Sabato:I noticed that the strawcolour was erased by something like sandpaper.Whats your opinion about to restraw them,and if the magazines for 9mm and 7,65mm are the same.Many thanks to Mr. Sabato for his interest.I will try to learn about the story of this Luger in my next travel in Bulgaria. __________________ I only know one thing,that I know nothing.SOCRATES.

07-23-2004, 08:44 PM	#17
Hugh RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Southeast Texas Swamp Posts: 2,460 Thanks: 2 Thanked 165 Times in 64 Posts	Apostolos, <img border="0" alt="[soapbox]" title="" src="graemlins/soapbox.gif" /> Please excuse me for buttin in, but if that were my gun, I would not do anything to it but wipe it down with an oily cloth and put it in the safe. In my humble opinion any attempt to reblue or restraw will greatly lower the value. <img border="0" alt="[nono]" title="" src="graemlins/nono.gif" /> Hugh __________________ *TRUMP FOR PREZ IN '20!*

07-23-2004, 08:59 PM	#18
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Okay...here is a test question... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> What markings will one (or both ?) sides of the extractor on this M1900 Bulgarian display ? Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

07-23-2004, 09:52 PM	#19
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,988 Thanks: 1,067 Thanked 5,099 Times in 1,676 Posts	None. Only the later "new model" (1906 and 1908) extractors are marked. Apostolos, I do not think restrawing the parts would be advisable. They would look "artificial" compared to the remainder of the Luger, which is obviously original and quite nice. The 7.65 and 9mm magazines are identical. Some magazines for the 1902 and 1906 model Lugers are marked "Cal 9mm" on the wooden bottom, but they are still dimensionally identical to the 7.65mm magazines. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

07-23-2004, 11:09 PM	#20
G.T. Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Chandler Arizona Posts: 3,486 Thanks: 1,284 Thanked 3,583 Times in 989 Posts	Ookee Dokee! I think the we are all in agreement that restoring or refinishing, is, or would be, detrimental to the overall value of the gun,.. BUT, how about parts replacement?? It would seem that 1900 straw parts that are replaceable would add considerably to the value of this unique collectable... what do you think? It comes down to correct vs. original??? til...lat'r...GT