dutch luger K.M. mark

tonyb · 11-17-2005, 07:56 PM

I have a dutch luger with a K.M. mark on the front of the grip strap does anyone else have a similar mark?
I will post some photos later

Navy · 11-17-2005, 09:28 PM

Hi Tony,

I used to have such a pistol; I traded it to Bob Simpson several years ago.

Tom A.

Herb · 11-17-2005, 10:01 PM

Tony, The letters represent the Koninklijke Marine, the Dutch Royal Navy. This mark is only found on the navy Lugers. Apparently less than 12 of these Lugers are know to exist. It is possible also that it is a marine stamping but I'd need the serial # to get more info.

tonyb · 11-19-2005, 10:48 PM

Thanks Herb;
The serial no is #791 it was brought to australia aboard a catalina in 1942 by dutch troops escaping the invasion of java[indonesia].

Vlim · 11-20-2005, 07:16 AM

Tony,

In that case: Be sure that it stands for Koninklijke Marine. It's nice to see that one of the evacuees actually stayed there. I knew they had to be there, but it would be nice to see one. Can you post pictures of it?

The mark is not so much a unit mark, but more a property mark.
If you want to find out more about the Dutch lugers, get the book "The Dutch Luger" by Martens & De Vries. Excellent book.

Herb · 11-20-2005, 11:39 AM

Serial # 791 'probably' places it in the third contract issue. Here is what is in the Dutch Luger book. "As less than a dozen Navy Lugers with "KM" marks are known, it is difficult to say whether they were sent to the Indies in series, or whether the mark was just applied to separate guns. Pistols with and without the "KM" mark are kinown form the second Navy Luger contract(serial number 78 to 569, inclusive). A few Lugers with the mark fall in the fifth contract (serial 1485 to 1786 inclusive. As no pistols from the latter serial range have been observed without the "KM" mark, it is possible that all 300 pieces were destined to be sent to the Indies".
The Dutch Marine Lugers fell into 100 to 199 inclusive and 1200 to 1249 inclusive serial number range so it's not a Marine issue just a plain old very rare Navy issue one. There is considerable discussion on the Dutch Lugers here on the forum, here is the link to it..............

Herb · 11-20-2005, 11:44 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Herb
Serial # 791 'probably' places it in the third contract issue. Here is what is in the Dutch Luger book. "As less than a dozen Navy Lugers with "KM" marks are known, it is difficult to say whether they were sent to the Indies in series, or whether the mark was just applied to separate guns. Pistols with and without the "KM" mark are kinown form the second Navy Luger contract(serial number 78 to 569, inclusive). A few Lugers with the mark fall in the fifth contract (serial 1485 to 1786 inclusive. As no pistols from the latter serial range have been observed without the "KM" mark, it is possible that all 300 pieces were destined to be sent to the Indies".
The Dutch Marine Lugers fell into 100 to 199 inclusive and 1200 to 1249 inclusive serial number range so it's not a Marine issue just a plain old very rare Navy issue one. There is considerable discussion on the Dutch Lugers here on the forum, here is the link to it..............

http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthre...ighlight=Dutch
Congratulations on your find, ones that rare don't come along very often. I would Imagine that since it missed the Japanese invasion and occupation it's in better condition that most of the Dutch East Indies Lugers, if you can post a load of pictures of it I'm sure the other members would like to see them.

pipeman45 · 11-20-2005, 05:13 PM

Of course we want to see it! The sickness only grows.

tonyb · 11-20-2005, 07:55 PM

Thanks for the info everyone here are the photos

tonyb · 11-20-2005, 07:58 PM

and another

tonyb · 11-20-2005, 08:04 PM

and another

tonyb · 11-20-2005, 08:07 PM

another

tonyb · 11-20-2005, 08:44 PM

another

Herb · 11-20-2005, 09:15 PM

Tony, what maker is it, looks to be DWM as the Vickers Lugers had a sort of sandblasted looking finish, not smooth like this one.

tonyb · 11-20-2005, 09:33 PM

sorry here is a photo of the toggle

Ron Wood · 11-20-2005, 10:47 PM

Good info on the M11 there Herb, but this Luger is not a 1906 patternÃ¢?Â¦note the lack of a grip safety and the presence of a stock lug. Also the Ã¢??RUSTÃ¢?Â arrow is pointing down, not up, and the proof is a vertical Crown/N, which dates after 1920. This Luger is from the 1928 contract for the Dutch Navy and was manufactured by BKIW (Berlin Ã¢??Karlsruher Industrie-Werke) that was formerly DWM and retained the DWM logo. This particular piece would have been from the second delivery in February 1929.

tonyb · 11-20-2005, 11:07 PM

photo there are no markings on the right side of the reciever at all

Herb · 11-20-2005, 11:09 PM

Ron, I used the info from the Dutch Luger book, and apparently got the wrong info based upon the serial number. I didn't even pay attention to the photos of the M11 with it''s grip safety. I'll change my post so as not to confuse anyone. Thanks for catching that, next time I'll pay more attention to what I'm seeing and writing, getting old is great.

tonyb · 11-20-2005, 11:10 PM

sorry wrong photo

Vlim · 11-30-2005, 06:02 PM

Hi,

Just a small word of warning.
The Dutch phrase for 'navy' is 'marine'. So 'Koninklijke Marine' means 'Royal Navy'. As 'marine' got a different meaning in the English speaking community, things can get confusing.

A very rare Dutch variation you have there. Congratulations!

11-17-2005, 07:56 PM	#1
tonyb User Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: australia perth W.Australia Posts: 27 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	dutch luger K.M. mark I have a dutch luger with a K.M. mark on the front of the grip strap does anyone else have a similar mark? I will post some photos later

11-17-2005, 10:01 PM	#3
Herb User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Utah, in the land of the Sleeping Rainbow Posts: 1,457 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Tony, The letters represent the Koninklijke Marine, the Dutch Royal Navy. This mark is only found on the navy Lugers. Apparently less than 12 of these Lugers are know to exist. It is possible also that it is a marine stamping but I'd need the serial # to get more info. __________________ Utah, where gun control means a steady trigger pull

11-20-2005, 11:39 AM	#6
Herb User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Utah, in the land of the Sleeping Rainbow Posts: 1,457 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Serial # 791 'probably' places it in the third contract issue. Here is what is in the Dutch Luger book. "As less than a dozen Navy Lugers with "KM" marks are known, it is difficult to say whether they were sent to the Indies in series, or whether the mark was just applied to separate guns. Pistols with and without the "KM" mark are kinown form the second Navy Luger contract(serial number 78 to 569, inclusive). A few Lugers with the mark fall in the fifth contract (serial 1485 to 1786 inclusive. As no pistols from the latter serial range have been observed without the "KM" mark, it is possible that all 300 pieces were destined to be sent to the Indies". The Dutch Marine Lugers fell into 100 to 199 inclusive and 1200 to 1249 inclusive serial number range so it's not a Marine issue just a plain old very rare Navy issue one. There is considerable discussion on the Dutch Lugers here on the forum, here is the link to it.............. __________________ Utah, where gun control means a steady trigger pull

11-20-2005, 05:13 PM	#8
pipeman45 User Join Date: May 2004 Location: Kentucky Posts: 539 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Of course we want to see it! The sickness only grows. __________________ Dave

11-20-2005, 07:55 PM	#9
tonyb User Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: australia perth W.Australia Posts: 27 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	dutch luger km mark photos Thanks for the info everyone here are the photos Attached Thumbnails

11-17-2005, 09:28 PM	#2
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	Hi Tony, I used to have such a pistol; I traded it to Bob Simpson several years ago. Tom A.

11-19-2005, 10:48 PM	#4
tonyb User Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: australia perth W.Australia Posts: 27 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thanks Herb; The serial no is #791 it was brought to australia aboard a catalina in 1942 by dutch troops escaping the invasion of java[indonesia].

11-20-2005, 07:16 AM	#5
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,032 Thanks: 1,018 Thanked 3,873 Times in 1,184 Posts	Tony, In that case: Be sure that it stands for Koninklijke Marine. It's nice to see that one of the evacuees actually stayed there. I knew they had to be there, but it would be nice to see one. Can you post pictures of it? The mark is not so much a unit mark, but more a property mark. If you want to find out more about the Dutch lugers, get the book "The Dutch Luger" by Martens & De Vries. Excellent book.

11-20-2005, 07:58 PM	#10
tonyb User Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: australia perth W.Australia Posts: 27 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	km and another Attached Thumbnails

11-20-2005, 08:04 PM	#11
tonyb User Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: australia perth W.Australia Posts: 27 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	km and another Attached Thumbnails

11-20-2005, 08:07 PM	#12
tonyb User Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: australia perth W.Australia Posts: 27 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	km mark another

11-20-2005, 08:44 PM	#13
tonyb User Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: australia perth W.Australia Posts: 27 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	km another Attached Thumbnails

11-20-2005, 09:15 PM	#14
Herb User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Utah, in the land of the Sleeping Rainbow Posts: 1,457 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Tony, what maker is it, looks to be DWM as the Vickers Lugers had a sort of sandblasted looking finish, not smooth like this one. __________________ Utah, where gun control means a steady trigger pull

11-20-2005, 09:33 PM	#15
tonyb User Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: australia perth W.Australia Posts: 27 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	km sorry here is a photo of the toggle Attached Thumbnails

11-20-2005, 10:47 PM	#16
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,986 Thanks: 1,065 Thanked 5,088 Times in 1,674 Posts	Good info on the M11 there Herb, but this Luger is not a 1906 patternÃ¢?Â¦note the lack of a grip safety and the presence of a stock lug. Also the Ã¢??RUSTÃ¢?Â arrow is pointing down, not up, and the proof is a vertical Crown/N, which dates after 1920. This Luger is from the 1928 contract for the Dutch Navy and was manufactured by BKIW (Berlin Ã¢??Karlsruher Industrie-Werke) that was formerly DWM and retained the DWM logo. This particular piece would have been from the second delivery in February 1929. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

11-20-2005, 11:07 PM	#17
tonyb User Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: australia perth W.Australia Posts: 27 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	km photo there are no markings on the right side of the reciever at all Attached Thumbnails

11-20-2005, 11:09 PM	#18
Herb User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Utah, in the land of the Sleeping Rainbow Posts: 1,457 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Ron, I used the info from the Dutch Luger book, and apparently got the wrong info based upon the serial number. I didn't even pay attention to the photos of the M11 with it''s grip safety. I'll change my post so as not to confuse anyone. Thanks for catching that, next time I'll pay more attention to what I'm seeing and writing, getting old is great. __________________ Utah, where gun control means a steady trigger pull

11-20-2005, 11:10 PM	#19
tonyb User Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: australia perth W.Australia Posts: 27 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	km sorry wrong photo Attached Thumbnails

11-30-2005, 06:02 PM	#20
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,032 Thanks: 1,018 Thanked 3,873 Times in 1,184 Posts	Hi, Just a small word of warning. The Dutch phrase for 'navy' is 'marine'. So 'Koninklijke Marine' means 'Royal Navy'. As 'marine' got a different meaning in the English speaking community, things can get confusing. A very rare Dutch variation you have there. Congratulations!