1917/1920 Converted Navy with Unusual Markings

[Malcolm P.]

Bought a 1917/1020 Navy that was shortened and reworked after WWI (fairly typical Navy Weimar rework). Has unusal markings. The front grip strap is marked with one crossed out unit and one that is not.

Crossed unit marking is B.3.IV.1.29.

Other unit marking is S.D.IV.4.4.R. The D is larger than the other letters.

Any idea what units this represents.

[policeluger]

Interesting, would you please recheck the grip strap marking, is it correct..."4.4."..." or is there just one "4", I believe it reads "Schutpolizie Dusseldorf IV= 4th police command/district, now 4.4. throw me off here as I said above, "R" = administrative command, hope this is a little help.

[Ron Smith]

Hi Malcom,
The second marking is Schutzpolizei. D�¼sseldorf. 4th Command. Centuria 4. weapon #4. Revier(weapon of the precinct main forces.)

The X'd out first mark is, I think:
Berlin. (3rd District?) 4th Command . 1st Centuria, Weapon #29

This one is confusing. Not sure of the 3.

Ron

[Edward Tinker]

Malcom, can you provide pictures? It should have a sear safety, maybe a mag safety too?

As you guessed, she has spent time with the police...

Ed

[Malcolm P.]

That is a strange thing about this Luger, it does not have a sear safety. The dealer I got it from and another dealer think the markings may be for army unit designations because there is no sear safety. Both of the dealers have been collecting for years and were not quite sure what to make of the markings since there is no sear safety. That pointed away from the Luger being a police conversion.

I can post pictures later.

[policeluger]

Just because there is not mag/sear police type safetys, it could still be police, I have seen them with the police sear safety missing and in some never installed, like Ed said, pictures will be of great help... Ron, please define "centuria", I'm a bit lost on this one, thanks, you know we can be way off here on this grip strap marking...its all fun.

[Ron Smith]

Hi Howard,
Centuria is defined as a police precinct.
I garnered the above information on the markings from G�¶rtz' Small Arms Markings, and Still's Weimar Lugers.
I am open to any other translations, anyone may have. I could be wrong.

Ron

[Ron Smith]

I believe the translation on the SD mark is correct. However, the X'd out mark could be a Prussian Military unit.

B = "Brigade, Bezirk (District), Br�¼cken (bridging-train), Batterie, Betriebs(operations-Amt)" as per G�¶rtz

3 = #3 of one of the above.

IV = 4th Armeekorps.

4 = Weapon #4

This would better explain the odd position of the 3. The question being, if it is a Navy, why would it have Army markings? None of the markings seem to corrilate with it being a Navy. I would think that both would have to be police units.
Malcom, Are the markings exactly as indicated?
There are'nt any /'s or scriptic letters?
Ron

[policeluger]

Ron, thanks, I think until I see pictures, I am not going to jump in a make a fool of my self. lets see what he posts, and I believe the statment above "the D is larger"..should have set of a warning bell within.

[Ron Smith]

Aw, come on Howard, two fools are better than one! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
Ron

[Malcolm P.]

Here are pictures of the markings on the converted Navy.

<a href="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/mpipesnavmarks01.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/mpipesnavmarks01.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>

<a href="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/mpipesnavmarks02.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/mpipesnavmarks02.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>

<a href="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/mpipesnavmarks03.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/mpipesnavmarks03.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>

<a href="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/mpipesnavmarks04.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/mpipesnavmarks04.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>


<a href="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/mpipesnavmarks05.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/mpipesnavmarks05.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>

<a href="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/mpipesnavmarks06.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/mpipesnavmarks06.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>

<a href="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/mpipesnavmarks07.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/mpipesnavmarks07.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>

There is no safety sear installed. The rear sight was machined away from the toggle and the toggle still has the large pin. All parts match except the side plate and the grips. The grips are period replacements and are heavily worn but lack any markings.

[policeluger]

Well its might be safe to say it is not police, and I have no guess as to what the grip strap markings stand for, it will be interesting to find out

[Ron Smith]

Howard,
I am curious to know why you think they are not police markings?
G�¶rtz discribes very similar markings. And on page 138 of Jan Stills Weimar Lugers. Is a photo of a police Luger marked S.D.III.43. "Schutzpolizei D�¼sseldorf".

Ron

[policeluger]

First Malcolm P. states that there is not a police sear safety, now it could be a police and still lacking a sear safety, rare, but its the first thing to ring a bell, and what really sets it off for me is the stamping. Now Ron I do not begin to know it all, but the few "SD"'s I own, and the many I have looked at, all are same size font, deep cut, and very clean looking, not at all like photos above. The above stampings look very rough, very in the field looking, and looks more like a WW1 then a Weimar stamp, just rough. I have never seen a "4.4" weapons number on an SD. but more in the traditional style like say S.D.V.233 and with perhaps and R X'ed out...I just made up the weapon number...this "centuria" number is something I have never seen on an SD..when I get time I'm going to do some research, check mine, and really welcome any info someone may have to the above SD marking....thanks...BTW saw Still's photo, the stamping are much cleaner then above and none of the "4.4." in question above...stand by and save your Christmas money, going to offer several police Lugers for sale after the first of the year, better get them first before Ed, much rather see them in your collection.

[Malcolm P.]

Ron,

I will defer to Howard's explanation, but two things pointed away from the police connection with me. First, no safety sear or mag safety. Second, the D is larger than the S or IV. In the pictures of police Lugers I have seen, the letters are the same size. In fact, my first impression when I examined the Luger was that it was a Dragoon marking, because that is what it looked like to me on first glance. The dealers I was discussing the gun with thought the crossed out unit might be a Bavarian WWI combat unit.

I would, or course, love to find out what the marks mean!

[Don M]

See: http://www.gunboards.com/luger/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3105

[George Anderson]

There were some Bavarians interspersed with ground Naval units in Belgium and up against the Channel, but the Bavarians had no Dragoons. It is not a Dragoon marking.

Off sized numerals or letters are just as easily explained during the Weimar period as "off-pistols" like a P04. It seems to me that it is most likely a police pistol.

All sear safety pistols were police, but not all police pistols had sear safetys.

[Ron Smith]

Howard,
Just send them all to me. I'll keep the good ones and send the rest to Ed. He does'nt stay home long enough to appreciate them anyway.
And thanks for explaining the basis for your opinion. Always interesting to here different points of view. Even though we may agree to disagree. I still think I'm correct on the markings, but maybe time will tell.
Thanks, Ron

[policeluger]

Ron, its all fun, and a bit of learning, I will stick to my last post for now, and lets see if we can find some real solid proof that this gun is police, or not......your right, I'd give the guns away before Ed gets them, unless he's got some $$.

[Edward Tinker]

yeah, yeah, but I knows you're lying!

I'll send you my C&R so those ratty ones can be sent to me!

Ed