Municipal Police marking

[thunderdawg]

I have what I believe is a commercial model Luger, made by DWM. The serial number is 93xxb, it has a sear safety, and the marking on the front of the grip strap is "S. Hn. 184.". There is no grip safety, and there is a shoulder stock lug on the back of the grip frame. Anyone know what municipality is indicated by "S. Hn." ? Thanks in advance.

[Edward Tinker]

Richard, if the serial number is 93xxb, then it would be in the military style and usually not in the commerical style. Was there something that made you believe it was a commerical?

A sear safety, if like this picture

The sear safety is on the top of the picture, then it is a police with the sear added 1933.

Any numbers on the top of the gun? i.e. a date or dates?

"S. Hn. 184.". This could be S = Schutzpolizei (municiple police force) Hn = unk and then the 184 would be the weapons number. I have seen Hn before, and will look it up...

Ed

[policeluger]

Hannover

[Edward Tinker]

In Weimar Lugers it has a H. for Hannover, that is why I didn't state that?
But I really don't know?
Ed

[policeluger]

Ed, H and Hn have both been credited to Hannover, if you have info otherwise would love to hear it....As for me Costanzo's personal letters of about 25 years ago gave me this info??

[Edward Tinker]

This is a quote from a previous posting on another forum;

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">S.Hn.11. signifies: Schutzpolizei Hn. weapon no. 11. The Hn is not on the Prussian State Police district list. H signifies Hannover and Hi signifies Hildesheim.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">No one was sure what it meant, to include Jan Still, so I took that as a reliable source of not knowing what Hn stood for. In my database of a few guns, I know of two other guns that have Hn, but I am unsure of what it actually means, although Hannovor is as good a guess as anything.

Ed

[Dwight Gruber]

Hn is not listed in the Prussian marking instructions in G�¶rtz & Bryans, H is designated for Hannover.

In my attempt to track down the H.P. police markings it has been suggested to me that there are State police organizatons beside Prussian and Bavarian, whose marking instructions, if they had them, have been destroyed or not discovered.

It would be premature to come to a final conclusion concerning marks which are not documented. I'd like to know where Costanzo got his information.

--Dwight

[policeluger]

Dwight, all of Costanzo's letters to me were kept, some upwards of 30 years old, should I ever get out of Luger collecting, I believe the letters should go to you....however I took Sam's word as fact and did not question it.

[Edward Tinker]

Howard, did Costanzo say where he heard this or have proof? (not doubting the gentlemen by any means, but thought he might have had reasoning for thinking this?)

Ed

[Ron Wood]

Sam has done one heckuva lot of data collection and research. In recent correspondence with him he provided nearly 100 additional serial numbers of Lugers with US Test Trial characteristics (below, within and above the 6100-7100 range), a few of which I had already recorded. I am sorting through the rest and slowly updating my database. I hope to be able to post an update to the listings in the Members Gallery in the not too distant future.
Anyway, that is a digression on my intended observation that Sam knows a lot of stuff, most of which is correct.

[policeluger]

Ed, no he did not, however I am sure I still have all his letters, someday I'll go through them again, and I will get the war trophy papers to you soon...

[thunderdawg]

To all:
Having started at least this recent thread, let me add a little more confusion. As I mentioned at the beginning, the front of the grip frame is stamped "S. Hn. 184.". One of the two magazines has stamped on the back edge "S.H.184.". On its aluminum base are the four digits of the serial number and the number "2" below. Above the four digit number is stamped a 45 degree arc, concave forward (upward), with 7 radial lines pointing to the rear (downward). There is what looks like a number "6" below this mark.
The other magazine has no unit marking on it, but does have the serial number and "1" marked on the base. On the right side of the magazine, just above the base is stamped "STARK"

Ed, you asked in your reply why I thought my Luger was commercial vice military. Someone on another forum told me that the crown over N proofs on the left sides of the toggle and receiver (and no other proof marks) indicated commercial. The breech bolt has the two digit number, but no proof mark. You also asked about numbers on the top. The only numbers are the last two digits of the serial number: on the extractor, the forward toggle link (just to the rear of the script DWM), and the end of the rear toggle link.
If I can get good digital pix of the markings (gun and magazines), and how to post them, I will do so in a few days. Thanks again for all of your interest and comments.

[Edward Tinker]

td; well S.H.184 equals Schutzpolizei, Hannover, gun number 184. I don't want to assume anything, but I take it that you have two matching magazines? If so, then this is a very good zeroing in on Costanzo's and thus Howards assertion that S.Hn. is also Hannover.

Do a search on Jan Stills forum for S.H. and you will see two threads on this subject.

There is a very good chance it started out as a commerical, as the police bought many of them. But, it could very well be a imperial, refurbished for the weimar period. We would need to know if the crown N was upright or "lazy, i.e. on its side.

There is a tutorial under the help area.

Ed

[thunderdawg]

Ed,
The crown N on the left side of the forward toggle is "lazy", with the crown forward. The crown N on the left side of the receiver is upright, and actually is an overstrike on the serial number (third digit).

I found the tutorial on picture posting, thanks.

The magazines, looking at the bases, appear to be matching, i.e., same four digit number as each other and the gun, with one numbered "1" and the other "2". The do have the differences noted in my earlier post today, which I had not noticed until close examination last night and this afternoon. So, yes, it may be possible that with the gun marked S. Hn. and the magazine marked S. H., maybe H. and Hn. are both Hannover.

Rich

[Dwight Gruber]

Let me continue to devilishly advocate.

There are collectors who are suspicious or sceptical about markings which are not in ordnung, who assert that one can only draw positive conclusions about Lugers whose markings strictly adhere to the instructins for their application. In their view the magazine spine marking would be another indication that this pistol's markings cannot represent Hannover, because it is marked in a way which is not specified in any known State's instructions. I have run into exactly this set of opinions with the HP./H.P. controversy.

This assertion does not apparently allow for error or misinterpretation on the part of the armorers who actually stamp the pistols, and does not address known markings which can only be the result of such mistake (LSAl./LS.Al).

The figure on the magazine described as an arc with lines over a 6 is most likely an Eagle/6, the inspector's marking associated with Simson.

--Dwight

[policeluger]

TD...I live in the high desert area about 4 hours north of you if I am correct. I would love to see this Luger, see if I can find sone hidden details. My digital will not allow for fine detail, perhaps yours will..."STARK" marked mags are rare, made between 1923 and 1935.

[ken d]

FWIW I have a 1920 alphabet police Luger #1465a. proofed E/ArA4. Front grip strap marked "S.Hn.II.5.117." Matched alum bottom mag #1 Sunburst/S, marked on spline "S.H.II.5.117." Mag markings are smaller than those on grip strap. Perhaps it was common to drop the "n" on mags.

Regards Ken D

[thunderdawg]

DG,
I concur with the notion that even 20th century Germans may not have always marked according to plan. Guess that just adds to the "fun" of unraveling these little mysteries. Oh, and after sending my previous post, I found the Tech Info items on markings and agree that the one mag base marking looks like one of the examples of Simson acceptance stamps.

ken d,
Is the Sunburst/S what I described in an earlier post, i.e., is what I thought a "6" actually an "s"?

The Tech Info also makes me wonder if the letter in my Luger's serial number is actually "l" rather than "b".

policeluger, I can usually get to Barstow in under two hours, Victorville about 30 minutes less. (OK, on a good day, or on a motorcycle, in a cage, it can take longer). In which high desert area do you live? Maybe we could meet somewhere in the middle. Meanwhile, I still plan to post the pix, if they turn out ok.

In closing, I have owned the Luger for about 18 months, but only recently found this site and one other. I have learned quite a bit in just a few days of help from you all. Thanks.

[Edward Tinker]

Supplying pictures would help in deciding if it is a 6 or an S, otherwise we are just guessing... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" />

Look under the suffix pictures I have posted and see how they compare, again, pictures would help a lot

http://www.lugerforum.com/Suffixes/Suffixes.htm

[thunderdawg]

Ed,
I just noticed on the pic you sent a few days ago, the number on the sideplate was low, whereas mine is slightly above the middle. Actually, the bottom of the two numbers looks to be right in the middle, top to bottom. When I can get pix of this I will show you how mine looks. However, is the vertical location evidence of this being a police sideplate or not?

One more thing I noticed is the little pin in the sear safety (Schiwy Sicherung) is missing. Maybe this happens in an 80-year old gun, or maybe it was removed by someone who had a non-police sideplate. The sear bar does have a hole in it to accept the pin, if it were there.

With all the correct parts intact and in place, how does the pin ride up on top of the sideplate when the action cycles? Is there a ramp surface on the topside of the police sideplate?