1920 Police unit mark

[Herb]

Here's another one, S.Br,J.1587 I'm guessing Shutzpolizei Bremen, or Bremerhaven, or maybe the district of Brandenburg or Braunschweig, but the J has me stumped, weapon #1587, that's a lot of cops in one district. Any thoughts on this 1920 police? I have a picture if you insist.

[Herb]

Ed, use your imagination, it's late here, after 3 tries and getting an error message that the file is too big, here it is but you'll have to enlarge it yourself--
http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/1920_unit_mark.jpg
I can only get a connection in about once in three tries.
That 'J' just might be an 'I'

[Edward Tinker]

Herb is this yours or? Sounds very interesting.


Ed

[Herb]

Not in my hands yet but the deal is closed, I'm just waiting for it to be sent. A better photo I hope.....
http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/unit_mark.bmp

Figured out how to do it using Irfanview, and changing the name extention, learning something new every day.

[Ron Smith]

Herb,

Schutzpolizei Breslau I (first Centuria or district). Looks like a nice one.

Ron

[Herb]

Thanks Ron, the listing that I have shows what we commonly call the weapon #, in this case 1587, as an ITEM number, not a weapon number. In this case that would make more sense since 1587 pistols in a precinct, or district, seems like a lot to me or perhaps I just don't have a good feel for the structure of the 1920 German Police forces or whatever they were when this one was stamped.

[Ron Smith]

Herb,
The numbering system, I believe, includes all pistols in the city. This part of the translation, I would have to defer to Don Maus or George(Schupo).

Ron

[Herb]

Ron, take a look at the diagram on page 230 of John Walter's the Luger Book. He shows a police bayonet, a holster and other items that are numbered in the S.Br.I xx manner, this further leads me to think that these markings are actually ITEM numbers rather than just pistol markings, but then I sometimes have a tendancy to get off on tangents at times nowadays, oldtimers setting in.

[Schupo]

Herb,

An odd number to be sure. I can't connect to your link to look at the mark but the "Br." marking is regulation for Breslau. If the second mark is a Roman Numeral "I" then it would indicate the specific administrative district. The last marking of the four digit number "1587" does seem very high but it is possible. I have seen numbers this high for Berlin which had a slightly different numbering system with lots of pistols.

I hope this helps.

George

[Herb]

Thanks George, the link in my second post is working, I just checked it. The forum is still having problems tho, it will go down right in the middle of something then back up a few seconds later, give it another try. Berlin is one big honking city, I lived there back in the early 70's, just in the western part though. Putting it back together like it was back in the 20's it is enormous.

[Schupo]

Herb,

I can see the photo now. The marking looks OK to me for the 1st administrative district of Breslau. I don't know why the number is so high, but Breslau was a big police district. Normally, these Prussian police sub-districts (I. or II. usually) are much smaller and only go to three digit numbers. I have a bayonet marked to the 2nd district of Breslau and it has only a two digit number.

You are right about Berlin. I have not been there in years but it is huge. There are lots of sub-district Polizei Abschnitt that have several hunderd cops per station house. Charlottenburg off the K-damm is #27 and has around 400 cops. They had around 20,000 policemen in Berlin the last time I visted them.

George

[Ron Wood]

The second reporting of a Breslau Police Luger in two days is posted on Jan Still's site. It has the "property" number 1480. I am no expert but I have the same understanding that Herb indicated, that this is an individual inventory item number and not necessarily exclusively for pistols. Number 1587 is a Luger and 1588 might be a typewriter (probably really not that disparate in terms of item types, i.e. a block of numbers might be reserved for weapons only, but you get the idea).

[Herb]

Ron, that's exactly what I think based upon the info I have been able to find.

[Don M]

Herb,

My research suggests that 1587 is truly a weapon number indicative of the number of pistols and Schupomen in that unit. Br.I. almost certainly designates the city of Breslau within the Breslau governmental district. In 1925, Breslau had a population of 557,000. My database includes weapon no. 1878 from this unit. If there were 2000 Schupomen in Breslau, it would be a ratio of 1:280 -- approximately correct for a large city. Berlin had a ratio of 1:250.

I would be very interested in knowing more about this pistol for my database of police unit marks: toggle logo (DWM?); chamber date (1920?); serial number & suffix (if any); sear safety and/or mag safety. Thanks very much.

[Herb]

Don, what I currently have is that it's a 1920 DWM, serial # 6175, I don't know about the suffix, if any, or the other info. When it arrives I'll post that data for you.

[Don M]

Herb, I'll be looking forward to it. Congratulations on a nice acquisition and thanks for the data.

[Herb]

I wish it was really as nice as it looks, well I guess it is, but it's been refinished and has a mismatched part, so it's just a shooter with an interesting gripstrap unit mark to research. I find that half the fun of getting a new Luger is taking it apart and looking for new stampings and then researching them. My first Luger, a 1937 S/42 that I got back in about 84 has a mark on the left side of the frame that I still have no idea what it is. Two verticlal 1/4 inch lines and two dots one at the left of the top of the left line and one at the top of the second line. I'll probably never find out what those are.

[Herb]

Don, I got it today, here is the other info you wanted, there is a suffix, 'a' the sear safety has been removed, just a hole in the frame now while the spring thing is still on top of the side plate which has been cut out and there is a slot cut into the frame side just above the left grip, nothing in there either. It has phony 'black widow' grips on it and the refinishing looks like black parkerizing, no buffing is apparent as everything is sharp and crisp, it looks like it was bead blasted lightly before being refinished. Might be an ex Russian or VOPO, as there is an X following the serial # on the left reciever. Bore is excellent, the best I have seen actually. The small parts that are usually strawed are black except for the ejector which still retains a little straw color. The unit stamping is really low on the grip strap, starting just above where the grip strap starts to curve to the magazine well . It has an importers stamp on the bottom of the barrel, GAI MIA FL. The magazine that came with it is a Mecgar replacement mag. The locking lever is numbered 82 and is the only non matching part. The right reciever still has the original triple AYA4 eagles of the 1920 DWM police models. I'm curious about it being parkerized rather than blued, any thoughts on that?

[Don M]

Herb,

Thanks very much for the additional info. I'm not where I can access my database now but this sounds very much like one of the 1920 DWMs that were produced for the police and military before they were forced into only "commercial" production in 1921. It clearly has/had both sear and mag safeties at one time. I believe the X indicates Russian capture. Don't know anything about parkerizing.