Barrel Serial Number...Suffix...?

Pete Ebbink · 11-22-2002, 11:27 PM

Maybe I missed it along the way; but will ask again for us beginners :

Is there any "rhyme & reason" to when the serial number on a barrel will include a suffix and when it will not ?

Thanks for any help...

Pete... <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />

Edward Tinker · 11-23-2002, 01:28 AM

Military will generally have a suffix, (except for Kreigs, which used a continuous 1-12,000 (or something like that).

Commerical won't have suffixes (I am sure there are exceptions), or contract such as AE, Dutch, etc.

So, generally suffixes are for military once the run reached 10,000.

Dwight Gruber · 11-23-2002, 02:01 AM

Pete,

Are you asking about a frame serial# with a suffix and a barrel serial# with the same numbers but no sufix?

--Dwight

Pete Ebbink · 11-23-2002, 12:36 PM

Hello Dwight,

The later; why do some guns, with a frame serial number suffix, do not have the suffix on their barrel ? Were there some trends to this method amongst certain makers, model years, contracts ?

I can't seem to see any pattern to this practice, but what the heck do I know...

Regards,

Pete... <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />

Edward Tinker · 11-23-2002, 03:45 PM

Hello Pete, I wasn't sure which you were asking, so I answered the easy answer, sorry about that.

I sure seem to say sorry alot, maybe I should quit posting for a while... [img]redface.gif[/img] (I doubt it, but jeez <img src="graemlins/crying.gif" border="0" alt="[crying]" /> )

research, research..

Dwight Gruber · 11-23-2002, 05:13 PM

Pete,

I think this is a good and disturbing question.

I have been looking over the 1936 S/42 which I shoot, and have noticed that the serial number on the barrel has no suffix; the frame has the same numbers, with suffix. The barrel has the the appropriate land diameter marking, the typefaces and size seem to be proper, the barrel has the right proof. And yet...and yet...

The more I look at at this gun, the more I become suspicious that it has been rebarrelled. The witness mark is questionable, I begin to question the typeface of the barrel number (not having another Mauser with which to compare it), and the wear at the muzzle does not seem to quite match the wear on the rest of the gun.

Now, I do not suspect for a moment that this gun has been "boosted" in some fashion to enhance its value. It is not a prime 90%+ piece: it is ding-ed and pitted from use; and judging from the personalized, non-standard grips which it wore when I bought it, it is probably a vet bring-back.

I believe I recall reading here in the recent past, one of the more experienced heads commenting that our Lugers have been "messed with" more than we know. Your question, and my observations, make me wonder about the circumstances which might bring a Luger in to a repair depot, and just what the practices were regarding maintenance and repair.

Ed, don't you -dare- quit posting!

--Dwight

Edward Tinker · 11-23-2002, 06:32 PM

Okay, I just "hate" humility and sticking the old foot in mouf hurts! [img]biggrin.gif[/img]

Dwight, I wonder how many of our guns ahve been messed with "over the years??"

Being old, they might have passed through arsenals on several occassions?

Roadkill · 11-23-2002, 07:58 PM

I'll help out a little Ed, my ignorance outshines all. Reference the rearsenaling, Lugers were made to be shooters, collectors made collectors out of them later, they were standard issue down to squad level throughout WWII and the Wehrmacht probably was more pistol issue tolerant than any other army before or since. So they were very common. Since they were issued down to the lowest level they were shot in training by those most likely to use them in combat. The Wehrmacht was also the best trained army at the time. Infantry shoot guns, guns and parts wear out, parts are replaced. Guns used in training units are shot, disassembled, cleaned, and reassembled daily. Rebuilding, most likely by the factories that made them, would be the only answer.

rk

jim haycraft · 11-23-2002, 08:31 PM

For what it's worth: my shooter, a 1940 42, serial 5a, has only "5" under the barrel along with the land diameter - no suffix! As far as the rest of it goes, "alles in ordnung." No evidence, as far as I can see, of re-barrelling or any messing around.

G.W. Gill · 11-23-2002, 09:12 PM

Byf 42 serial #6229H. No suffix on barrel.

Jimbo · 11-23-2002, 10:41 PM

Hi Pete,

My various Mausers, from G-date to 41 byf all have the SN on the barrel without the suffix. The suffix is only shown on the front of the frame, and no where else.

I have never seen the suffix stamped on the barrel. What Lugers have you seen where the suffix is stamped on the barrel?

Jimbo

Dwight Gruber · 11-24-2002, 12:57 AM

[quote]Originally posted by Jimbo:
<strong>I have never seen the suffix stamped on the barrel. What Lugers have you seen where the suffix is stamped on the barrel?</strong><hr></blockquote>

Of my Lugers which have frame number suffixes, my 1917 LP-08 barrel does, and my 1918 LP-08 (with mismatched barrel) does also. My S/42 and my U-block Police do not.

The 1910 instructions and amendments (Gortz & Bryans, pp111-114) for marking P-08s specifies only the serial number on the barrel, oddly, the text does not mention serial numbers on the frame. The attached illustrations, however, do show the frame with serial number and suffix on the front, but only the number sans suffix on the barrel.

The letter suffix itself is dealt with in note 2 at the end of the instructions. This is the instruction which deals with the number sequences, and specifies that the sequence letter is to be applied below the pistol numbers on the frame and on the magazine.

A browse through Kenyon and Still is frustrating and inconclusive; Kenyon does not show the underside of the guns, and Still does only to demonstrate some non-standard feature.

Nonetheless, Imperial Lugers shows a picture on page 43 of a military-style serial number with a letter suffix on the barrel. In Weimar Lugers guns can be found with corresponding barrel number suffixes on pp. 58, 150, 239, and 272 (one of these is a U-block police, so much for my own sample); and without corresponding suffixes on pp.66, 138, 210, and 212 (I don't have Third Reich Lugers).

Its beginning to look like the answer to the original question is, no, there doesn't seem to be any rhyme or reason...

--Dwight

Pete Ebbink · 11-24-2002, 01:31 PM

Both my 1918 LP-08 and my 1920 Commerical police lugers have the suffix on the barrel. My 1913 Erfurt, my 4'1 bfy, and my other 1920 Commerical do not.

But I have seen lots of lugers at gun shows that do and don't; so I could not get a sense of any rules.

Dwight is correct; most of the good luger books seldom show the underside barrel views, so it is hard to tell from these book...

I was hoping there might be some "fast & true" rules; that could be used to determine if a luger was messed with depending on if it should have a barrel suffix or not...just another aid for authenticity checking...

Pete... <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />

Johnny Peppers · 11-24-2002, 01:42 PM

My 1921/1920 Police Luger was out of the safe, and it has the letter suffix on the barrel.

Frank · 11-24-2002, 02:42 PM

Hello All,

My 1917 DWM LP08 has the barrel suffix. I couldn't tell about other Imperial Lugers, since none of the rest of mine had a suffix as part of the serial number.

I did check a bunch of Military Mausers, at least one from each major variation, from K-Date to late byf 42 and NONE of these had a barrel suffix.

How about some help from Imperial and Weimar Luger aficionados!!

<img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />

11-22-2002, 11:27 PM	#1
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Barrel Serial Number...Suffix...? Maybe I missed it along the way; but will ask again for us beginners : Is there any "rhyme & reason" to when the serial number on a barrel will include a suffix and when it will not ? Thanks for any help... Pete... <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />

11-23-2002, 01:28 AM	#2
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,916 Thanks: 1,992 Thanked 4,507 Times in 2,081 Posts	Military will generally have a suffix, (except for Kreigs, which used a continuous 1-12,000 (or something like that). Commerical won't have suffixes (I am sure there are exceptions), or contract such as AE, Dutch, etc. So, generally suffixes are for military once the run reached 10,000. __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

11-23-2002, 03:45 PM	#5
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,916 Thanks: 1,992 Thanked 4,507 Times in 2,081 Posts	Hello Pete, I wasn't sure which you were asking, so I answered the easy answer, sorry about that. I sure seem to say sorry alot, maybe I should quit posting for a while... [img]redface.gif[/img] (I doubt it, but jeez <img src="graemlins/crying.gif" border="0" alt="[crying]" /> ) research, research.. __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

11-23-2002, 06:32 PM	#7
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,916 Thanks: 1,992 Thanked 4,507 Times in 2,081 Posts	Okay, I just "hate" humility and sticking the old foot in mouf hurts! [img]biggrin.gif[/img] Dwight, I wonder how many of our guns ahve been messed with "over the years??" Being old, they might have passed through arsenals on several occassions? __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

11-23-2002, 02:01 AM	#3
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,890 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,282 Times in 424 Posts	Pete, Are you asking about a frame serial# with a suffix and a barrel serial# with the same numbers but no sufix? --Dwight

11-23-2002, 12:36 PM	#4
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Hello Dwight, The later; why do some guns, with a frame serial number suffix, do not have the suffix on their barrel ? Were there some trends to this method amongst certain makers, model years, contracts ? I can't seem to see any pattern to this practice, but what the heck do I know... Regards, Pete... <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />

11-23-2002, 05:13 PM	#6
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,890 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,282 Times in 424 Posts	Pete, I think this is a good and disturbing question. I have been looking over the 1936 S/42 which I shoot, and have noticed that the serial number on the barrel has no suffix; the frame has the same numbers, with suffix. The barrel has the the appropriate land diameter marking, the typefaces and size seem to be proper, the barrel has the right proof. And yet...and yet... The more I look at at this gun, the more I become suspicious that it has been rebarrelled. The witness mark is questionable, I begin to question the typeface of the barrel number (not having another Mauser with which to compare it), and the wear at the muzzle does not seem to quite match the wear on the rest of the gun. Now, I do not suspect for a moment that this gun has been "boosted" in some fashion to enhance its value. It is not a prime 90%+ piece: it is ding-ed and pitted from use; and judging from the personalized, non-standard grips which it wore when I bought it, it is probably a vet bring-back. I believe I recall reading here in the recent past, one of the more experienced heads commenting that our Lugers have been "messed with" more than we know. Your question, and my observations, make me wonder about the circumstances which might bring a Luger in to a repair depot, and just what the practices were regarding maintenance and repair. Ed, don't you -dare- quit posting! --Dwight

11-23-2002, 07:58 PM	#8
Roadkill User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 1,632 Thanks: 1 Thanked 28 Times in 17 Posts	I'll help out a little Ed, my ignorance outshines all. Reference the rearsenaling, Lugers were made to be shooters, collectors made collectors out of them later, they were standard issue down to squad level throughout WWII and the Wehrmacht probably was more pistol issue tolerant than any other army before or since. So they were very common. Since they were issued down to the lowest level they were shot in training by those most likely to use them in combat. The Wehrmacht was also the best trained army at the time. Infantry shoot guns, guns and parts wear out, parts are replaced. Guns used in training units are shot, disassembled, cleaned, and reassembled daily. Rebuilding, most likely by the factories that made them, would be the only answer. rk

11-23-2002, 08:31 PM	#9
jim haycraft User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 20 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	For what it's worth: my shooter, a 1940 42, serial 5a, has only "5" under the barrel along with the land diameter - no suffix! As far as the rest of it goes, "alles in ordnung." No evidence, as far as I can see, of re-barrelling or any messing around.

11-23-2002, 09:12 PM	#10
G.W. Gill User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Southeastern USA Posts: 369 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Byf 42 serial #6229H. No suffix on barrel.

11-23-2002, 10:41 PM	#11
Jimbo User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SF CA Posts: 167 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Hi Pete, My various Mausers, from G-date to 41 byf all have the SN on the barrel without the suffix. The suffix is only shown on the front of the frame, and no where else. I have never seen the suffix stamped on the barrel. What Lugers have you seen where the suffix is stamped on the barrel? Jimbo

11-24-2002, 12:57 AM	#12
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,890 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,282 Times in 424 Posts	[quote]Originally posted by Jimbo: <strong>I have never seen the suffix stamped on the barrel. What Lugers have you seen where the suffix is stamped on the barrel?</strong><hr></blockquote> Of my Lugers which have frame number suffixes, my 1917 LP-08 barrel does, and my 1918 LP-08 (with mismatched barrel) does also. My S/42 and my U-block Police do not. The 1910 instructions and amendments (Gortz & Bryans, pp111-114) for marking P-08s specifies only the serial number on the barrel, oddly, the text does not mention serial numbers on the frame. The attached illustrations, however, do show the frame with serial number and suffix on the front, but only the number sans suffix on the barrel. The letter suffix itself is dealt with in note 2 at the end of the instructions. This is the instruction which deals with the number sequences, and specifies that the sequence letter is to be applied below the pistol numbers on the frame and on the magazine. A browse through Kenyon and Still is frustrating and inconclusive; Kenyon does not show the underside of the guns, and Still does only to demonstrate some non-standard feature. Nonetheless, Imperial Lugers shows a picture on page 43 of a military-style serial number with a letter suffix on the barrel. In Weimar Lugers guns can be found with corresponding barrel number suffixes on pp. 58, 150, 239, and 272 (one of these is a U-block police, so much for my own sample); and without corresponding suffixes on pp.66, 138, 210, and 212 (I don't have Third Reich Lugers). Its beginning to look like the answer to the original question is, no, there doesn't seem to be any rhyme or reason... --Dwight

11-24-2002, 01:31 PM	#13
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Both my 1918 LP-08 and my 1920 Commerical police lugers have the suffix on the barrel. My 1913 Erfurt, my 4'1 bfy, and my other 1920 Commerical do not. But I have seen lots of lugers at gun shows that do and don't; so I could not get a sense of any rules. Dwight is correct; most of the good luger books seldom show the underside barrel views, so it is hard to tell from these book... I was hoping there might be some "fast & true" rules; that could be used to determine if a luger was messed with depending on if it should have a barrel suffix or not...just another aid for authenticity checking... Pete... <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />

11-24-2002, 01:42 PM	#14
Johnny Peppers User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Calion, Arkansas Posts: 1,042 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	My 1921/1920 Police Luger was out of the safe, and it has the letter suffix on the barrel.

11-24-2002, 02:42 PM	#15
Frank RIP Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Hot & Dry PHX, AZ Posts: 2,078 Thanks: 24 Thanked 163 Times in 87 Posts	Hello All, My 1917 DWM LP08 has the barrel suffix. I couldn't tell about other Imperial Lugers, since none of the rest of mine had a suffix as part of the serial number. I did check a bunch of Military Mausers, at least one from each major variation, from K-Date to late byf 42 and NONE of these had a barrel suffix. How about some help from Imperial and Weimar Luger aficionados!! <img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />