Prices

[bill m]

Hi,

Saw a byf 41 for sale on one of the auctions with a starting price of $1950. It was represented as being in 98% condition with a nice holster, tool, and an extra blank magazine. The magazine in the gun was a black plastic. I wrote and asked what he would take for this outfit and he replied that it was worth a lot more than the starting price. The value that some people think these guns are worth is amazing. I wrote and explained that you could put together an outfit like his for under $1700. He said his byf was worth $1650. Does anyone actually sell these outfits without matching magazines for over $2000? I think a lot of the stuff on these auctions isn't really for sale unless it brings a huge premium! No one bid on the gun either. Guess you can ask anything, huh?

[G.T.]

Hi Bill, I'm with you....I think a pretty nice byf 41 could still be found for between $1000 & $1200.....holster $250 to $300, spare mag $100, tool $50 to $75....looks pretty much $1700 should buy you a screamer! Any more then that, and you are paying blue sky for want! till...later....G.T.

[BILL]

I have given the current auctions a pretty good look and I have to agree that there are many prices that are not even in the ballpark. The only thing that I can surmise is that someone is either being told they have something worth a fortune and they are trying to verify it, or they are just out trying to find out what they have is worth. The next time this pistol is put up for bid it will start a little lower. I know people who put cars on eBay and if they don't sell them for $2000 more than they paid for them then they take different pictures, rewrite the description and relist it. It isn't about selling something, it is about getting every penny you can possibly wring out of the thing (and then some). Auctions are geared in the seller's favor.

Something crazy is going on out here. I got my Century flier today advertising excellent condition P-38's for $600 and am reading on other sites tonight that they are sold out already. It also appears likely that at least some of these are renumbered and reblued. Less than a year ago Empire Arms had "absolutely gorgeous" P-38's which were in mint-condition and re-arsenaled and which took them several months to sell for $450--I did not buy one at that time because I could get one in excellent original condition for $350 (alas, I failed to do so). It does not make economic sense to me that the more guns they import the higher the prices go.

The sad truth of the matter is, that even though many folks are calling the $600 price ridiculous, the fair market value of an imported reblued P-38 probably actually is $600 if you can dump a bunch of them on the market and they are snatched up at that price.

I had started about a year ago collecting WW2 pistols, but if this trend cuts across the board, I am going to be out of business real soon. I shudder to think what G.I. 1911's or Broomhandle Mausers will be at if they appreciate at a similar rate.

I also am having trouble with the theory that the outbreak of WW2 movies is driving the market up. Serious gun collectors would already be into WW2 without seeing "Pearl Harbor", and non-collectors are probably not going to get into the hassle, expense, and social approbation of becoming a gun collector merely because they saw a movie.

I just don't know.

[Matt]

Mike,

I don't think the influence of movies in and of themselves drives people who were not previously interested to collect but they can help rekindle the interests of enthusiasts who have not been actively collecting for awhile.

I have gone through periods of a couple of years without collecting but always come back around to it.

As far as movies influencing what to collect, I have to admit that "Enemy at the Gates" has made me want Mosin-Nagant and K98k sniper rifles although I doubt I'll buy either because of the high prices they sell for.

Matt

[Johnny Peppers]

The movie that really started the ball rolling as to outrageous prices for WWII militaria was "Saving Private Ryan". The movie did very good in using the correct clothing and equipment, with the exception of the sniper rifle, and it apparently set everyone on fire to own a piece of history. Many pieces of equipment jumped in price 4 to 6 times what it had been selling for prior the SPR. For a while too much money was chasing too few original pieces. It really didn't matter what the equipment was, someone would buy it. One item in particular was a type of folding screwdriver that had been made since Civil War days. The dealers were getting $3 and $4 for the WWII version, but some of them sold as high as $25 on ebay. Everyone got to digging out equipment and putting it on ebay, and the prices have leveled out and in some cases actually come back down some. It really didn't matter what the equipment was, someone would buy it

[tony k]

I blame Y2K. No, really. I think now that we're in the 21st Century, there's a growing nostalgia for those high moments of the last century, when everyone pulled together to fight the Axis powers ....


So what you've got is new "history collectors" that just want to own a piece of something glorious. They do not understand the fine points of collecting firearms, and they don't understand why a shiny reblue isn't worth way more than an 80 % original -- hey, they are both Lugers, carried and fought with by the Nazis, right? If they can get something that looks historical to them for $600, why pay $1,200 for another one that is more worn?


These are the same folks that pass up honest "survivor" classic cars and instead buy ones that are 110 % overrestored. (Or worse, they buy the survivors and restore THEM, in the process destroying the car's historical integrity.)


I really fear a return to the standards of the '50s, when honest guns were "prettied up" to make them sell better. Money drives a market. SOMEONE is buying these overpriced recent imports, and if they have more money than we do, they may wind up making the market rules, tossing originality by the wayside.


OTOH, maybe I'm just getting paranoid ;}

[BILL]

Good points. Maybe it is all about WWII and the nazi's and Hollywood. Somehow I think that the fairly recent flood of East German and Russian imports has just bred a new generation of Luger collector that was not into it before these became available. It's not like $600 is a disposable amount for a 'souvenir', though.

[Marvin]

Bill,


You are sure correct on the pricing of Lugers on the auctions. I have almost stopped looking at the auctions because the prices are ridiculous. If I could sell my pistols for what some of the starting prices are I would seriously consider selling. The only thing is that if they do climb to this price level, it just makes the ones I own now that much more valuable. I think I will keep mine and see what happens in a few years.


One of the postins discussed the price of the P.38s being offered at $600 and they are all sold. I can;t believe they sold at this price. You can still buy a nice, original P.38 for less than that! All the dealers that bought these pistols will then try to price them at $700-750 at gun shows and some will definetly sell.


If the prices for the import marked Lugers and P.38s begin selling at these prices, that should make all the originals go up also. My pistol buying has slowed this year because of the escalating prices.


Marvin

It will be interesting to see if this inflation cuts across the board to all WW2 pistols, including to those which are generally unknown to the non-gun-collecting public, such as Nagants, Nambus, and Radoms, or if it instead will be confined to those more infamous ones which have penetrated popular culture for years, such as Lugers, P-38's, and 1911's. On the other hand, these latter three were already more expensive in the first place.

[Marvin]

Mike,


You are correct in seeing what will happen to other pistols from the WWII era. I always like to see my investment rise except when I want to buy, ha, ha.


Back about 25-30 years ago, I could buy a GV/Exc common Luger for approx. $125-150. Today, this same pistol should cost retail approx. $800-900, that is a big percentage jump over the years, but probably kept up with inflation, and some increase in actual value over and above inflation. In another 25 years, at the same rate, this pistol will cost in the several thousand dollor range. This is good for selling, but sure bad for buying. In 25 years, I hope we can still own these pistols.


Marvin

[Johnny Peppers]

I never collected with the idea that it was a good investment, but if it turns out that way, so be it. I have friends that will spend $20,000 on a new boat and trailer, but would think that spending $20,000 on a collectible pistol is sheer lunacy. The fact that their boat drops 50% in value the first year is of no concern to them.

The prices on the recently imported Lugers seems to be more niche driven rather than collector driven. These pistols are putting pressure on the lower grades of original examples, but have no effect on the early collectible Lugers that are now in the $4000 to $5000 range. The higher price pistols are rising in value on their own merits. A good example of this is the 1911/1911A1 pistols. These pistols were never declared surplus, and none have been imported since 1968. There have been no artificial influences on their price, but as collectors become aware of the the rarer examples, the prices have risen accordingly. One such pistol is the 1911A1 built by Union Switch & Signal. 55,000 were built in WWII and everyone has known that they were a scace example. Collector presssure has driven the prices of these pistols into the $1500 to $2000 range for really nice original examples. Recently one US&S that was as new in it's original shipping box sold for $3800 with no advertising.

It will probably take several years to see the real effect of the import pistols on the collectible Lugers. When the first big shipments of Lugers were sold in the 1950's, they were advertised as haveing a 4", 6", or 8" barrel, take your pick. Only after information started coming out on the different variations did the prices start to sort themselves out. We are also seeing a very sharp rise in value of truly near new examples of these pistols.

[Rick K]

High prices on internet auctions has been mentioned as being high. What do you all think about prices at http://www.gunsamerica.com which is not an auction, but rather contains classified ads?

[BILL]

I have seen pistols both overpriced and priced low, but haven't examined them to determine their condition. Since the pictures seem to look better than the actual picture in most cases I would have to really examine it in person. I think the prices are more realistic.

[Rick K]

I bought my S/42 from Gunsamerica. I bought it mainly because the picture looked so good! And, I thought the price was good, but I wasn't sure. But, the pistol looked so good, I called the guy.

[Matt]

I bought a byf 41 in excellent condition with original holster and extra non-matching mag off Guns America. I wouldn't say it was an excellent buy, but it was lower than the $1,300-$1,600 prices I typically see for Luger rigs.

[Rick K]

One good thing about Guns America is that a lot of sellers offer a three day return option if you aren't satisfied.