counterfeit stamps

Brien · 04-11-2016, 10:23 PM

General question,

Is it becoming difficult to trust the provenance of lugers now that it seems you just go on eBay (or wherever) and buy proofing and numbering stamps? I have collected medals and have been burned quite a few times buying fakes. How hard is it to tell if that matching mint condition all matching Krieghoff is th genuine article or a well executed counterfeit.

Obviously research is a factor, but it's hard enough sometimes to differentiate a real iron cross from a good faked one.

How about a luger Made from re-stamped parts etc.

How do you folks deal with this?

I'd hate to find that beautiful piece, drop thousands on it and later find out its a dud. Or it just luck of the draw?

sheepherder · 04-11-2016, 10:48 PM

This is why when a new owner posts pics of his 'rare' Luger, that his trusted dealer told him was not refinished and that all the parts matched, it is subjected to a ruthless scrutiny by the knowledgeable experts here and at Still's forum.

Edward Tinker · 04-11-2016, 10:52 PM

Knowledge is everything. Not that I am an expert, and I have a hell of a time with holsters and tools. Still, nobody in my opinion should be buying a $8000-$12000 Luger and guess it's a "dud".

Rare markings on a Luger should make you pause, however the stamps for Lugers seem incorrect to me. But, everyone needs to be careful.
New stamps would need to be reblued.
And a gun that looks new, needs to be looked at very close.

George Anderson · 04-12-2016, 08:39 AM

Here's a great example of a good pistol that's been "boosted" with bogus markings.
http://www.invaluable.com/auction-lo...ive&utm_term=2

alanint · 04-12-2016, 08:46 AM

Also keep in mind that quite often older stamps must be removed in order for the "boosted" markings to be added. Scrubbed magazines are fairly obvious and numbers that sit in a dished out area where the old number was are not too hard to spot. Pantograph markings are also fairly obvious under magnification.
It is expensive to truly fake Luger markings, as the old area must be rendered pristine before any new markings are added. This is why only real rarities are generally attempted.
Books and experience will also go a long way. No matter how pristine, a 100 year old pistol has an aura that a restoration cannot duplicate. Pretty much everybody can be fooled, but a collection of experience such as this site offers will get it right virtually all of the time.

DonVoigt · 04-12-2016, 08:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by George Anderson

Here's a great example of a good pistol that's been "boosted" with bogus markings.
http://www.invaluable.com/auction-lo...ive&utm_term=2

I saw that a "new" EW?.
Is the horizontal marking and location high on the grip the tell?

All I've seen were orientated along the long axis of the grip; and they didn't "PLAn ahead".

Ran out of room for the full B!?

Norme · 04-12-2016, 09:28 AM

Hi Don, It's like they say in the real estate business, "it's location, location, location". The EWB markings were applied to the right side grip panel.
Regards, Norm

mrerick · 04-12-2016, 09:51 AM

While expensive, the collector books that list, show sharp photographs and describe variations of Lugers are quite valuable.

The databases being maintained by forum members are also valuable for helping establish provenance and the authentic state of Lugers.

As prices and rarity rise, you need to spend more and more attention to detail.

The skill of members that have seen a large number of Lugers in the hand is also quite valuable. While sometimes delivering bad news, that skill and background is quite appreciated.

Marc

George Anderson · 04-12-2016, 10:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Norme

Hi Don, It's like they say in the real estate business, "it's location, location, location". The EWB markings were applied to the right side grip panel.
Regards, Norm

As Norm says, location and orientation. The final blow is that the grips are not numbered and the same bogus branding iron used on the grip was used on the stock. The magazine is also bogus.

sheepherder · 04-12-2016, 10:27 AM

There have also been cases of a 'mechanic'/seller posting pics of his rare Luger here on this forum and inviting comments. His intent is to state in his auction that the Luger was presented to the experts and passed inspection.

It rarely works.

There have also been 'mechanics' who post a question here about how some feature/marking should look, rather than how it does look. Gotta watch out for those guys.

I swear, if I was 30 years younger, I'd be cranking out bogus Totenkopfs, Russian Contracts, and Spandau Lugers by the wheelbarrow full!!!

Norme · 04-12-2016, 10:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brien

General question,

Is it becoming difficult to trust the provenance of lugers now that it seems you just go on eBay (or wherever) and buy proofing and numbering stamps? I have collected medals and have been burned quite a few times buying fakes. How hard is it to tell if that matching mint condition all matching Krieghoff is th genuine article or a well executed counterfeit.

Obviously research is a factor, but it's hard enough sometimes to differentiate a real iron cross from a good faked one.

How about a luger Made from re-stamped parts etc.

How do you folks deal with this?

I'd hate to find that beautiful piece, drop thousands on it and later find out its a dud. Or it just luck of the draw?

Hi Brien, To return to your question. If you are contemplating "dropping thousands" on a Kreighoff, you should first drop a couple of hundred on the appropriate reference book, in this case "The Kreighoff Parabellum" by Randall Gibson. In it you will find that Kreighoffs have several distinctive features that are virtually impossible to duplicate, short of fabricating a new frame from scratch.
Regards, Norm

m1903a3 · 04-12-2016, 11:37 AM

Brien

Before anyone spends serious money on a collector grade Luger they need to do their homework and educate themselves.

Obtain and study the relevant books for the type of Luger that you are interested in. In my opinion, The Borchardt & Luger Automatic Pistols by Görtz & Sturgess is the best overall book by far.
http://www.amazon.com/Borchardt-Luge.../dp/0972781579
You can just buy it on DVD for around $60

You also need to study the specialty book(s) on your particular area of interest. Mouser, Krieghoff, Police, whatever your interest there will be one or more books on the topic.

In addition to books, you should read every single thread on this forum and the Jan Stills Luger forum that is in your area of interest.
The forums are rich with discussions and pictures of Lugers, the good and the bad, where you can learn a great deal.

Finally, go to gun shows and auctions where you can see and handle numerous Lugers to see first hand what the various finishes look like.

cirelaw · 04-12-2016, 01:48 PM

Book are first and our members advice after seeing some pictures are priceless! Its like buying a pricey used car without looking under the hood or whether its mechanically sound!! Great advice above!!

alanint · 04-12-2016, 06:19 PM

And if you prefer short-cuts, there are several members who collect and sell authentic, documented Kreighoff Lugers.

cirelaw · 04-12-2016, 07:02 PM

I relyed on George Anderson for all my luger needs. I am proud and never have been disappointed!! PS He took payments~Eric

Brien · 04-12-2016, 11:57 PM

I have got to start reading my posts closer. First off as always thank you all. I was being a little facetious when I mentioned the Krieghoff. Obviously if it was something like that you don't buy it willy nilly.

I was centering more on the mid range but still several thousand dollar range weapons. I just think it would be a little hard for a novice to navigate. Like with medals the higher the prices go the more impetus for folks to fake.

Theres s gun show here every month or so but lugers are just about nonexistent. There's one guy who shows up every now and then with a full table of lugers. I don't think Ive seen one on it for less than 2500. His inventory grows a bit each time, very seldom does it get smaller. I have to think long and hard before dropping that kind of cash.

DonVoigt · 04-13-2016, 12:06 AM

It is a little hard to help you when you say "here", where is here?
There are some of "us" all over the country and world, so you might could get some help.

I don't think "several thousand" is mid range! ouch!

Mid range to me is $1500, over $2k and I get nervous.

Buying pistols of any type for that kind of money is a minefield, JMHO.

At least there are really good books on Lugers.

DonVoigt · 04-13-2016, 12:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sheepherder

There have also been cases of a 'mechanic'/seller posting pics of his rare Luger here on this forum and inviting comments. His intent is to state in his auction that the Luger was presented to the experts and passed inspection.

It rarely works.

There have also been 'mechanics' who post a question here about how some feature/marking should look, rather than how it does look. Gotta watch out for those guys.

I swear, if I was 30 years younger, I'd be cranking out bogus Totenkopfs, Russian Contracts, and Spandau Lugers by the wheelbarrow full!!!

Better stick to things that never existed, you can't be accused of fraud for creating a "fantasy", well maybe if you are dumb enough to call it genuine.

DonVoigt · 04-13-2016, 12:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Norme

Hi Don, It's like they say in the real estate business, "it's location, location, location". The EWB markings were applied to the right side grip panel.
Regards, Norm

That's where I'd seen them, and orientated more or less vertically;
but wonder why the right?

Can't see it in the holster or in the hand.

You'd think some left/right challenged armorer might mark the opposite side occasionally.

Brien · 04-13-2016, 05:31 AM

Don,

Thanks, until you mentioned it I didn't realize my location wasn't on my profile. Fixed it! I agree with you on pricing. 1500 is about max for me. Closer to 1000 is much better. I try and budget for maybe an additional 100 extra a month payment. I'm on a fixed income so the wiggle room is a bit tight at times.

I could drive over two hours to the tulsa arms show at the end of year. Only problem with that is its getting so expensive for the vendors, they have to jack their prices way up just to pay for the tables.

My sights are set though. Main priority this year is a navy and a nazi.

If I had been paying attention I would already be done. Jasta2 sold a nice shooter navy a few months back and them that byf shooter went just s couple weeks ago.

I guess half the fun in the chase.

04-11-2016, 10:23 PM	#1
Brien User Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Choctaw ok Posts: 53 Thanks: 17 Thanked 8 Times in 3 Posts	counterfeit stamps General question, Is it becoming difficult to trust the provenance of lugers now that it seems you just go on eBay (or wherever) and buy proofing and numbering stamps? I have collected medals and have been burned quite a few times buying fakes. How hard is it to tell if that matching mint condition all matching Krieghoff is th genuine article or a well executed counterfeit. Obviously research is a factor, but it's hard enough sometimes to differentiate a real iron cross from a good faked one. How about a luger Made from re-stamped parts etc. How do you folks deal with this? I'd hate to find that beautiful piece, drop thousands on it and later find out its a dud. Or it just luck of the draw?

04-11-2016, 10:48 PM	#2
sheepherder Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: ...on the 'ol Erie Canal... Posts: 8,182 Thanks: 1,398 Thanked 4,440 Times in 2,328 Posts	This is why when a new owner posts pics of his 'rare' Luger, that his trusted dealer told him was not refinished and that all the parts matched, it is subjected to a ruthless scrutiny by the knowledgeable experts here and at Still's forum. __________________ I like my coffee the way I like my women... ...Cold and bitter...

04-11-2016, 10:52 PM	#3
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,916 Thanks: 1,995 Thanked 4,507 Times in 2,081 Posts	Knowledge is everything. Not that I am an expert, and I have a hell of a time with holsters and tools. Still, nobody in my opinion should be buying a $8000-$12000 Luger and guess it's a "dud". Rare markings on a Luger should make you pause, however the stamps for Lugers seem incorrect to me. But, everyone needs to be careful. New stamps would need to be reblued. And a gun that looks new, needs to be looked at very close. __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

04-12-2016, 09:51 AM	#8
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,901 Thanks: 1,372 Thanked 3,094 Times in 1,503 Posts	While expensive, the collector books that list, show sharp photographs and describe variations of Lugers are quite valuable. The databases being maintained by forum members are also valuable for helping establish provenance and the authentic state of Lugers. As prices and rarity rise, you need to spend more and more attention to detail. The skill of members that have seen a large number of Lugers in the hand is also quite valuable. While sometimes delivering bad news, that skill and background is quite appreciated. Marc __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.

04-12-2016, 10:27 AM	#10
sheepherder Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: ...on the 'ol Erie Canal... Posts: 8,182 Thanks: 1,398 Thanked 4,440 Times in 2,328 Posts	There have also been cases of a 'mechanic'/seller posting pics of his rare Luger here on this forum and inviting comments. His intent is to state in his auction that the Luger was presented to the experts and passed inspection. It rarely works. There have also been 'mechanics' who post a question here about how some feature/marking should look, rather than how it does look. Gotta watch out for those guys. I swear, if I was 30 years younger, I'd be cranking out bogus Totenkopfs, Russian Contracts, and Spandau Lugers by the wheelbarrow full!!! __________________ I like my coffee the way I like my women... ...Cold and bitter...

04-12-2016, 08:39 AM	#4
George Anderson Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: VA Posts: 3,592 Thanks: 1,773 Thanked 2,527 Times in 786 Posts	Here's a great example of a good pistol that's been "boosted" with bogus markings. http://www.invaluable.com/auction-lo...ive&utm_term=2

04-12-2016, 08:46 AM	#5
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	Also keep in mind that quite often older stamps must be removed in order for the "boosted" markings to be added. Scrubbed magazines are fairly obvious and numbers that sit in a dished out area where the old number was are not too hard to spot. Pantograph markings are also fairly obvious under magnification. It is expensive to truly fake Luger markings, as the old area must be rendered pristine before any new markings are added. This is why only real rarities are generally attempted. Books and experience will also go a long way. No matter how pristine, a 100 year old pistol has an aura that a restoration cannot duplicate. Pretty much everybody can be fooled, but a collection of experience such as this site offers will get it right virtually all of the time.

04-12-2016, 09:28 AM	#7
Norme Always A Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Colorado Posts: 2,415 Thanks: 225 Thanked 2,594 Times in 931 Posts	Hi Don, It's like they say in the real estate business, "it's location, location, location". The EWB markings were applied to the right side grip panel. Regards, Norm

04-12-2016, 11:37 AM	#12
m1903a3 User Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Virginia Posts: 197 Thanks: 26 Thanked 315 Times in 112 Posts	Brien Before anyone spends serious money on a collector grade Luger they need to do their homework and educate themselves. Obtain and study the relevant books for the type of Luger that you are interested in. In my opinion, *The Borchardt & Luger Automatic Pistols* by Görtz & Sturgess is the best overall book by far. http://www.amazon.com/Borchardt-Luge.../dp/0972781579 You can just buy it on DVD for around $60 You also need to study the specialty book(s) on your particular area of interest. Mouser, Krieghoff, Police, whatever your interest there will be one or more books on the topic. In addition to books, you should read every single thread on this forum and the Jan Stills Luger forum that is in your area of interest. The forums are rich with discussions and pictures of Lugers, the good and the bad, where you can learn a great deal. Finally, go to gun shows and auctions where you can see and handle numerous Lugers to see first hand what the various finishes look like. __________________ - Mike Life member: NRA, OVMS, VGCA Member: NAPCA, N-SSA(Veteran) Si vis pacem, para bellum

04-12-2016, 01:48 PM	#13
cirelaw Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: PORT ST LUCIE, FLORIDA Posts: 12,216 Thanks: 6,209 Thanked 4,133 Times in 2,173 Posts	Book are first and our members advice after seeing some pictures are priceless! Its like buying a pricey used car without looking under the hood or whether its mechanically sound!! Great advice above!!

04-12-2016, 06:19 PM	#14
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	And if you prefer short-cuts, there are several members who collect and sell authentic, documented Kreighoff Lugers.

04-12-2016, 07:02 PM	#15
cirelaw Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: PORT ST LUCIE, FLORIDA Posts: 12,216 Thanks: 6,209 Thanked 4,133 Times in 2,173 Posts	I relyed on George Anderson for all my luger needs. I am proud and never have been disappointed!! PS He took payments~Eric

04-12-2016, 11:57 PM	#16
Brien User Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Choctaw ok Posts: 53 Thanks: 17 Thanked 8 Times in 3 Posts	I have got to start reading my posts closer. First off as always thank you all. I was being a little facetious when I mentioned the Krieghoff. Obviously if it was something like that you don't buy it willy nilly. I was centering more on the mid range but still several thousand dollar range weapons. I just think it would be a little hard for a novice to navigate. Like with medals the higher the prices go the more impetus for folks to fake. Theres s gun show here every month or so but lugers are just about nonexistent. There's one guy who shows up every now and then with a full table of lugers. I don't think Ive seen one on it for less than 2500. His inventory grows a bit each time, very seldom does it get smaller. I have to think long and hard before dropping that kind of cash.

04-13-2016, 12:06 AM	#17
DonVoigt User Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: near Charlotte NC Posts: 4,678 Thanks: 1,441 Thanked 4,348 Times in 2,038 Posts	It is a little hard to help you when you say "here", where is here? There are some of "us" all over the country and world, so you might could get some help. I don't think "several thousand" is mid range! ouch! Mid range to me is $1500, over $2k and I get nervous. Buying pistols of any type for that kind of money is a minefield, JMHO. At least there are really good books on Lugers. __________________ 03man(Don Voigt); Luger student and collector. Looking for DWM side plate: 69 ; Dreyse 1907 pistol K.S. Gendarmerie

04-13-2016, 05:31 AM	#20
Brien User Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Choctaw ok Posts: 53 Thanks: 17 Thanked 8 Times in 3 Posts	Don, Thanks, until you mentioned it I didn't realize my location wasn't on my profile. Fixed it! I agree with you on pricing. 1500 is about max for me. Closer to 1000 is much better. I try and budget for maybe an additional 100 extra a month payment. I'm on a fixed income so the wiggle room is a bit tight at times. I could drive over two hours to the tulsa arms show at the end of year. Only problem with that is its getting so expensive for the vendors, they have to jack their prices way up just to pay for the tables. My sights are set though. Main priority this year is a navy and a nazi. If I had been paying attention I would already be done. Jasta2 sold a nice shooter navy a few months back and them that byf shooter went just s couple weeks ago. I guess half the fun in the chase.