1904 Navy on GunBroker

[Big Norm]

I saw a 1904 that is currently on GunBroker (item #2347462). I went crazy at something like this being offered. I wrote the seller and asked some questions. The photograghy was poor. It turns out that this is really a 1906 first issue altered. It may have been refinished long ago (seller did not know for sure). The seller did not seem to know what to call what he had. He said that he called it a 1904 because everybody told him it was a P-04. He is now calling it a 1906 variation of a 1904. The guy has some book reading to do. I didn't ask if it came with a Navy mag or what the bore looks like. Personally, I think it might be a decent deal at $2100. I am not adverse to a professionally well done restored fairly rare Luger. Navy Lugers don't come on the market very often.

Big Norm

[bill m]

[tom]

All German Navy pistols with the six inch barrel had the official nomenclature Marine Pistol '04. It is we American collectors who have further "enhanced" the taxonomy with tems such as "First Issue Altered" Second Issue" "Model 1908 Navy" and "Model 1914 Navy"


And thats OK as it gives us a way of communicating precisely about these beautiful guns...they are my field of specialization among toggle tops and I currently own 14 of the beauties!


Tom

[Dok]

[Big Norm]

Most certainly the serial number indicated a 1906 navy. But recently I made a comment about a serial number on a chamber dated 1914 DWM artillery. I caught all sorts of flak (both on and off this forum, experts and amateurs alike) about paying too much attention to what that books say about serial number ranges. Let us be consistant. The seller did not say that this was a P-04. He said it was a 1904 Navy. The photography was not good but there are internal things that differentiate the 1906 from the 1904. The price was cheap, but, at the time, there were six days left in the auction. Lots of things happen in the last few minutes of an auction. Absolutely, it was worth a note to the seller. Certainly I was aware of the price. I would be a fool it I wasn't.


I was not alone in my thinking. The seller commented in his return email that there was quite a furor in email created by his description. I do not believe that this is strictly an American phenominon to designate a luger for what it is. This forum is international.Shattuck and Simpson never say 1945 P-08 in their adverisements, they say 1945 Kreighoff and they are international. I felt that his description was deceptive. I personally am irritated when I look at auctions in Gun List magazine where ALL artilleries are designated as 1914 DWM's or Erfurts only. Even on this forum, four inch barreled Lugers are not designated as just P-08 or 1908's. There is a big difference and not just to American collectors.


My note to this forum was to alert everybody so that people would not make a serious and possibly a very costly mistake. Anybody who has been on this forum for any length of time are aware that there are Lugerheads on this forum at all levels of expertess. This conditon exists beyond the scope of this forum. The price could have bid up by the unsuspecting.

Big Norm

[John Sabato]

But I thought your posts like this one have been informative and I have an appreciation for members who take the time to warn others that they could make a costly mistake because an auction seller might be too scarce with the real details or might be intentionally misrepresenting what they are selling... Please don't be hesitant to do this kind of reporting because of a few that might misinterpret your posts...


thanks for being vigilant for all of us and not just for yourself...


-John

[Big Norm]

Thanks John,


Most of the flak that I took was on the chamber dated 1914 DWM artillery with a serial number 75 at a recent big gun show by some well known dealers. These guys had an audience around them like they usually do. The audience was buttering up to the big guys and went around making me look kinda dumb. I may be sorta sensitive still about that one. But I am still going to go by the book.


I am sorry people for being too overly sensitive

When I became interested in collecting lugers in 1994 I quickly decided to use the most accurate terminology I could use. It seems that slang and misnomers permeate collecting fields and this results in confusion. It becomes difficult to talk to a seller over the phone because their interpretation of "all matching" or "P04" can differ from that of others. All navy lugers are P04's as far as I know. All model names are collector designations but fortunately don't have multiple interpretations. I say 1917 LP08 and I that is unambiguous. Several times I have been shown an "artillery" luger that varies from an LP08 to a P08 with a long replacement barrel.


I am sensitive to rude criticism, too, and think such criticism has no place in a hobby discussion. This is supposed to be fun. Unfortunately, there are a few people with psych problems that inhabit the collecting world. I think your attempts to protect the unwary are fundamentally a service. Attacks are also levied at people who share safety recommendations about guns--there are always a few guys who shriek denial at such advice.

[John Sabato]

BE FUN!

[Johnny Peppers]

I believe that in all correspondence of the period the new pistol adopted by the German navy was referred to as the Pistole 1904 or Selbstladenpilstolen 1904, but not P.04. Within the Pistole 1904 are variations, and this is where the commonly used terms to differentiate between the variations comes in. Additionally there is the 1906 variation, and then the 1914 variation. Using the dates of these variations simply states which model of the Pistole 1904 we are talking about. The alterations to the 1906 variation further pins down which pistol we are talking about. As collectors we use many terms that are not historically correct, but as long as we are all familiar with accepted terminology, no harm has been done.

[Luke]

[Luke]