Extraction trouble

[kmichaels90]

So heres the issue when I bought my shooter it was kinda gummy and crummy so I cleaned the crap out of it. When I took it shooting I noticed that every now and then it would fail to extract a fired case and the toggle would jam the next round in the mag Into the base of the fired casing. I removed the extractor and cleaned it and the slot in the breechblock. The extractor looks great and has no dings,chips,or other deformities. I did replace the extractor spring with one from buymilsurp.com. I also had the headspace checked and it was fine and the cases have no abnormal bulges after firing. It doesnt seem to matter how many rounds are loaded in the mag or if im using WWB or federal american eagle. Basically im just wondering if anyone else has had this trouble, and things I could check for a remedy. Could my near 100 year old magazine be the problem? Im going to order myself a complete spring set and mec gar mag later this week and see if that helps. I took it out and put about 30 rounds of the american eagle through it yesterday and noticed it appeared to be piercing the primers. At that point I figured I better stop and let the experts tell me whats going on.

[lugerholsterrepair]

Kyle..Pierced primers would concern me. A primer with a hole in it will let abnormally high pressures into the bolt face and wherever else they may escape to. One possibility is that a pierced primer is letting enough pressure into the bolt face to push the extractor up off the lip of the cartridge causing your failure to extract.

[ithacaartist]

In the likelihood Jerry is correct, better check your firing pin for damage. Its tip should be rounded and smooth, as a sharp edge on the tip will cut the primer, opposed to evenly and smoothly deforming/stretching it. Failure to eject could possibly be only the beginning of your troubles if you're piercing primers-- pressure in the system outside the case/chamber risks damage to the breech block, firing pin, and anything they contact after they are thrown back extra hard against by the pressure from a pierced primer!

[kmichaels90]

I checked out the tip of the firing pin and it seems fine I'm starting to think that it may be an ammo issue. Im gonna try a few more rounds of the winchester white box as the pierced primers only happened with the american eagle. Im also gonna take a closer look at the tip of the firing pin. I put 80 rounds of the winchester through it sunday with only two failures to extract and no pierced primers. Yesterday was when I fired the federal and noticed the primers. I'd really like to get this gun functioning properly as it is very accurate and fun to shoot.

[rhuff]

I would also be sure that the firing pin spring is good(strong enough to retract the firing pin) and that the firing pin channel is very clean so that you are not experiencing an occasional stuck firing pin. Is the firing pin spring guide in good condition and all there?

[kmichaels90]

Originally Posted by rhuff

I would also be sure that the firing pin spring is good(strong enough to retract the firing pin) and that the firing pin channel is very clean so that you are not experiencing an occasional stuck firing pin. Is the firing pin spring guide in good condition and all there?

The guide looks fine I cant find any strange wear marks on it. I cleaned out the firing pin channel and the inside of the firing pin last night for the first time. I wont get a chance to shoot it again until thursday but when I do Im going to use the Winchester White Box ammo.

[rhuff]

Is your firing pin an original firing pin, or an aftermarket unit ? Is it numbered? If it is aftermarket, could it be out of spec...tip too long? I guess that I am just thinking out loud..

[kmichaels90]

It is original numbered to the gun. I still believe the pierced primers to be an ammo problem seeing that it only happened with the one box of american eagle. When I switched back to WWB I had no more pierced promers but still had the failure to extract. Also I had previously shot two boxes of american eagle through it with no pierced primers. So pierced primers aside what else could be causing my trouble?

[mrerick]

In delayed extraction, as the bullet travels down the barrel, the high pressure has tries to expand anywhere it can. Beyond pushing the bullet forward, a chamber stuck (or extraction delayed) case would only permit pressure to vent through the primer hole. That might drive the primer down over the protruding firing pin.

Photos of the pierced and non-pierced primers could help diagnose things.

Check and make sure that the receiver can travel smoothly along the frame without binding. The recoil spring (if too strong or with something interfering) could delay extraction by preventing the toggle from hitting the knee to start extraction in time.

Kyle, you might benefit by sending it to Tom Heller if it keeps behaving badly...

Marc

[ithacaartist]

Kyle,

Look at the fp's tip under magnification.

Also, you might want to check whether the front end of the pin is fluted, with 3 longitudinal grooves in the pin which would allow for the escape of pressure should a primer be pierced. Earlier models' fp's were not originally relieved, and sometimes replaced or reworked to establish the safer setup, which helps prevent the firing pin from being turned into a powerful gas piston when ignition pressure from a pierced primer could enter through the hole for the fp's tip in the front end of the breech block. In the case of your numbered, original pin, just obtain a good aftermarket one that is fluted, and swap it out for shooting. Tom Heller may have some; if not, they appear frequently at online sources, sellers, auctions, etc.

David Parker

[rhuff]

If the extractor system and firing pin system is all good to go, then the item that I would look at are the magazines. As I am sure you know, Lugers are very sensitive to all of the springs in them, and the mag feed lips. I think that you are on the right track. I own 2 lugers that will NOT function 100% with MecGar mags, even with the 10% stronger mag springs that I installed. The both seem happy with their originals and Stoeger(sp) mags. Every Luger is a challenge in itself.

[kmichaels90]

Originally Posted by rhuff

If the extractor system and firing pin system is all good to go, then the item that I would look at are the magazines. As I am sure you know, Lugers are very sensitive to all of the springs in them, and the mag feed lips. I think that you are on the right track. I own 2 lugers that will NOT function 100% with MecGar mags, even with the 10% stronger mag springs that I installed. The both seem happy with their originals and Stoeger(sp) mags. Every Luger is a challenge in itself.

I think your right there the extractor and firing pin look great, also it is an unfluted fp. I went and shot some WWB throught it today and no pierced primers in the 16 rounds I fired so Im hoping that was just a fluke with bad ammo. The mag is an original though not numbered to the gun but im starting to blame it. Next time I shoot it im gonna load a single round at a time in the mag and remove the mag before firing and see what happens. If it makes it through several mag fulls I'll figure its the mag. When I shot it today the first shot on both mags failed to extract then on the first mag it made it all the way through and the last round didnt extract. On the second mag it was every round. It always does it on the last round and almost always on the first. Hence me suspecting the mag.

[rhuff]

It is not uncommon for the last round to not fully extract from the receiver, since there is no loaded cartridge below it in the mag assisting it. I belive this was discussed somewhere on this forum, but not positive on that. The mag follower is not a lot of help to the last expended piece of brass in ejecting. The extractor should extract it, but the process from there can be a problem. Those mag springs usually need to be quite stiff to help everything work.

[lugerholsterrepair]

I do not believe you will trace a failure to extract to the magazine. From what you say the magazine has performed admirably. It's function is to bring the cartridge into position so it can be pushed into the chamber. Once the cartridge is chambered correctly the magazine is irrelevant. The cartridge has left the realm of one system and entered another. It cannot be more plain that once the cartridge is in the chamber..it's failure to extract has nothing whatever to do with the magazine..empty.. or pregnant with cartridges.
My suggestion would be to closely examine the condition of the extractor before every shot. Be especially observant of the shots you know or suspect might fail to extract. On a normal extraction you will observe the extractor to be at a certain angle. If you observe an abnormal angle..either too low or too high something is amiss.
The extractor must be just right to lay in the extractor groove. Too low may mean the extractor has not been pushed far enough forward to rise above the base of the cartridge base and fall into the extractor groove. You could then notice the bolt face possibly pushed away from the rear of the breech in this case exposing a glint of the brass cartridge.
If the extractor is too high it might be riding on top of the base of the cartridge. Either of these two conditions might put the pistol slightly out of battery but still able to fire.

One other consideration is to check your headspace. It is possible that your headspace has been eroded enough to push the cartridge into the barrel too far. If you have a strong extractor spring the face of the extractor could simply push on the base of the cartridge without riding up and over the base into the extractor groove.

All of these scenario's could lead to pierced primers. If the cartridge is away from the bolt face apon detonation... the base of the fired cartridge would slam back into the bolt face with abnormal force resulting in inertia overcoming the firing pin spring causing the firing pin to be fully forward in the bolt face..piercing the primer on occasion .
It would be good to not only examine the angle of the extractor but to keep track of any shots that result in a pierced primer.

My advice is to make absolutely certain of the headspace..IF it is eroded and out of order enough to cause all of the above it is dangerous not only for these reasons but for the fact that if a cartridge is pushed too far forward into the barrel there is a possibility of the bullet being trapped in the barrel and abnormal pressures are the result.

One thing to remember is..pierced primers, overly flattned and loose primers..all indications of HIGH pressures.

[Sieger]

Hi:

You probably have an extractor spring that is weak with age and needs replacing. This is an easy two minute operation. Lugerdoc probably has the necessary spring for you.

Pierced primers are real Luger killers, as the high pressure slams your firing pin back against its retainer, eventually causing failure of the breach block!!!

I'd avoid any ammo with such problems. How is your firing pin strike on your WWB primers?

Sieger

[Lugerdoc]

Sorry, currently sold out of relieved Mauser FPs, but do have new extractor springs available @$5 pp. Since there can be many caused for this problem, as mentioned above, it's difficult to analyze from a distance, but I'd also check your EJECTOR to make sure that it's moving freely. TH