Luger Value vs. Rig Value?

[Ron Smith]

(Also posted on Jan Still's Forum)
I'm sure this has been discussed before, but I could'nt find it in searches.
What is the general concensus on individual value of a Luger, as opposed to the value of a complete rig?
For example;(values are arbitrary) If a minty 1937 S/42 Luger,s value is $1500. And a 1937 holster in like condition is valued at $200. A spare mag is valued at $100(matching or not). And the correct tool is valued at $75.
We now have a combined value of $1875. How much would the complete rig be worth? It seems that it would be worth more than the combined values of the individual pieces.
How much is the value enhanced by having a complete rig? Opinions?
If this subject has been flailed before. I missed it.

Ron

[John Sabato]

Ron, lots of rigs have been valued based on the kind of analysis you just made... but in over five years, I do not recall this subject being discussed in any detail from the point of view you have raised.

I am sure that a complete rig warrants more than the sum of its parts, but it is going to be very subjective on what that difference is... depending on the actual rig... how rare the type is... how long the buyer might take to accumulate all the pieces, etc. I can't see how you could produce an accurate "rule of thumb" on a value increase...

Just my

[Ron Smith]

John, I would agree that there are alot of variables. I am mainly interested in the opinions of experience collectors in general.

It would seem that a complete rig would be worth more than the total of the combined pieces.
However, on the other hand, it would also seem that, unless the rig had provinence as a rig. It would be worth no more than it's combined parts.
A rig would probably hold more interest. There by possibly commanding a bit more value.
I have noticed that dealers, for the most part place a considerably higher value on a rig. Than on the individual pieces.
I guess you could say I'm just polling to see what the general opinion is.

Thanks,Ron

[John Sabato]

Ron, all your arguments have merit... I am afraid you have answered your own question

But let's see what the hardcore collectors have to say...

Regarding dealers charging a lot more for one of their "rigs"... that seems to be completely inverse of the common practice among some dealers to part out Lugers because they can get more money than if they sell the gun as a complete unit! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" />

When General Opinion stops by, be sure and shout attention so I can hear what "he" has to say

[Navy]

IMHO, a correct and complete rig adds significantly to value above the individual piece price of components, especially when two matching mags are included. This is even more so when the rig in question is centered on a rare piece.

My guestimate is the premium would tend to be 25% or more, depending on the rig.

Of course, this is why so few collectors get into rigs...they can get pricey quick.

Tom A.
Who has specialized in full rig guns for a LONG time

[Frank]

Hey Ron, you said </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva"> However, on the other hand, it would also seem that, unless the rig had provinence as a rig. It would be worth no more than it's combined parts. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">I totally agree!! I collect Lugers, some collect rigs. To me the "rig" was another ploy to enhance the sale of holsters by a well known Luger Retail House a few years ago. They had a bunch of holsters they couldn't sell, so they came up with the marketing ploy of the "Rig".

Without provanence, I'll buy the pistol and try my best not to include the rig.

After saying that, the price of the leather has out paced the price of the pistol. So if your looking for an investment, sounds like the leather has it!!

[the gunman]

I know its 6 one way half doz the other . I myself would
pay a premium for a nice complete rig.

[Ron Smith]

The reason I came up with this question is due to my negotiations with a local dealer on two Luger rigs. Both are police reworks. One in very nice condition (95%+), with an okay holster( coming apart) and nonmatching police mags. The other an average condition pistol and a mint 1918 military holster. With one matching police mag, the other a military mag. Both have tools, which are unmarked. I am trying to get him to sell me the nice pistol and the military holster.
He won't budge on either, thinking he's going to cut a fat hog. He's not very Luger knowledgable and thinks they are original rigs.
He has them WAY over priced. And he thinks I'm trying to con him. Some "Luger expert" told him that he could get $2000+ for each of them. I told him that he will probably take them to the grave with him. By listening to the "Expert".

At any rate, I just thought I would see if my thoughts were in line with those, more knowledgable and with more experience. Ya can't go wrong by checkin' with the Pros.

Thanks, Ron

[ToggleTop]

Hello,

Is the definition of a complete rig as follows:

Pistol (All matching-everything)
Two original matching magazines.
Original take down tool?
Holster dated same as pistol or one year before or one year later.

I have seen the word "rig" slung around lately and I think different people have diferent definitions.

My greatest luger finds have come from "complete rigs" purchased directly from the veteran. I am always anxious to pay a premium for a complete rig from such a source. We have to keep in mind that even from this source things could have been switched around. Many rigs today have surely been put together to try to increse a pistols value or rig value. Such as the "Black Widow" lugers. Everybody has to have one and of course you can get more money for them. It does seem our hobby is centered around what the value of our things are and not so much the historical significance. I seem to cherish my lugers as an engineering marvel and the place they represent in history as most came to America from an honored veteran.

I have a lot more to say but will quit here for the time being.

Beste Wishes,

[Dwight Gruber]

Opinion.

The complete "rig" as you describe is worth the sum of its constituent parts, no more. Without provenance (bringback papers and pre-capture combination, for instance) there is no true historic association of the gun with its accessories, it is just a collection of...stuff. The matching mag scenario is different, and is properly a value-enhancing part of the gun itself (if not counterfeit!).

What you have described does not constitute a rig in my eyes.

To me, a "rig" would be a Luger and a holster with some kind of connection--a Police pistol with a matching unit marked holster and tool, or an Imperial unit marked gun with matching unit marked holster, or a Navy or LP-08 with matching-numbered stock-holsters. A unit-marked Imperial Luger with a holster marked to the same unit, but with different weapon numbers, does not truly constitute a "rig", but I might be willing to pay a small premium for the combination. Same with a Police marked not-quite-set.

Opinion off.

I talked to an acquaintance on the phone last night, a guy who acquires Lugers occasionally and mostly passes them on. In the course of the conversation--not having anything to do with this discussion--he mentioned that when he gets a Luger with a holster he usually sells them separately, he finds that he can get a bit more money for them thtat way.

Its true that he doesn't often have the top 98-percentile Lugers, and he doesn't break up truly matching sets.

--Dwight

[Brent B.]

I have a 1917 DWM with all matching serial numbers, two matching s/n mags, loading tool and the holster has a unit ink stamp (can't quite read) and another ink stamp that I think reads LW MO over 1917. It appears that the holster has had some repair to the strap. The pistol has some pitting on the barrel and I didn't see any numbers stamped on the inside of the grips. Would this be considered a "rig"?

[Pete Ebbink]

Hey Ron,

Thanks for starting this discussion...good question to ask and very good replies received !

I enjoy the time and effort it takes to assemble a "put-together rig". Maybe a better term would be a "forced match" rig. It is fun looking for the parts and satisfying when one of my "rigs" is complete. I try to do it with some of my lugers just to see if I can accommplish the task.

On the money side, I do not expect my "rigs" to have any more value than their parts hold individually and would not sell them, eventually, as a "rig" unless the buyer knew the assemblage of gun and parts was just that...an assemblage.

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

[Edward Tinker]

I guess I look at it a bit more practically.

I think there are three types of rigs.

A Rig that is true and complete; i.e. matching holster, tool and spare magazine, all matching.

A Rig that has matching mag, matching tool, matching holster, and no matching extra mag.

A rig that has been put together. A put together in my opinion, is likely for a military and also police, and I believe that many times they were issued and the holster, magazines, tool were mix and matched. So, you are likely to find them seperated and apart. In this way putting together close to year or like equipment and proof marking is much like what was used in the war...

Ed

[Bob in OH]

FWIW... I recently bought a police "rig" that was complete and matched to include the holster, tool, and 2 mags. It was definitely worth a premium (to me) since I knew this had all been together since the Weimar period. Everything complete with legit provenance usually is not found 4 sale in the circles I travel....Bob

[SteveM]

Here is my rig:

http://www.gunboards.com/luger/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1983

I don't think anyone would spend the time or effort to fake one like this and I'll also bet that the holster is original to the pistol.

Besides, everyone knows that the only collectable rigs are the WW2 years.Those are the ones being faked.(Except Navy Imperials) Nobody likes "Original" Loogers.

Steve

[Imperial Arms]

I consider a rig being a (Luger) pistol with it original matching stock, holster, straps, magazine pouch, spare magazines (seldom available) and any other accessories, an example being a Navy rig or an Artillery rig.

A 'put-together/forced rig' could be a set which was assembled using items from the same year or era, an example being the creation of a Swiss or Portuguese rig.

An interesting topic which also creates many challenges.

Albert

[MauserLugers]

My opinion is that you are actually speaking of two different things.

A complete rig in my opinion is a Luger with two matching magazines, holster and tool. This commands a premium and is worth considerably more than the sum of the parts. The second magazine commands $1000 itself at times. Not all two matching magazine Lugers have been faked and when one finds a correct, complete rig it will be highly prized.

A rig which consists of a Luger, two proper magazines but not matching, holster and tool is worth the sum of it's parts or slightly more depending on overall condition.

What one considers a rig determines how one values these. -- Bill