Early Frame Tutorial

Ron Wood · 03-08-2004, 08:36 PM

Most of our Luger Forum members are familiar with the designation of "Long Frame" and "Short Frame". The "long" frame and receiver is 1mm longer than the "short" frame and receiver, with the extra length occurring in front of the takedown lever. The threaded portion of the long and short frame barrels are also 2mm different in length and therefore are not interchangeable.

However, some beginning Luger fans may not be aware that during early Luger development there were several transition steps from the old model long frame to the new model short frame.

Here are Type categorizations of these transition steps that I have made into a little guide. These are my observations and I am sure this list may not be totally comprehensive and that exceptions do exist (all bets are off on 1920 era Lugers), but it is by and large representative. I welcome any recommended corrections, changes or comments.

Type I - Old model long frame, thick rounded frame and trigger guard the full width of the frame. Type I is found on 1900 military and commercial Lugers, 1900 and 1902 Carbines, some 1902 Prototypes, and the 1904 Navy (with the addition of a stock lug).

Type II - Old model short frame, squared off frame, trigger guard the full width of the frame, and "thin" frame below the takedown lever. Type II is found on 1902 commercial, American Eagle, and test Lugers (Dutch, German, and American Eagle), some 1902 Prototypes, and 1903 Commercial.

Type III - New model long frame, rounded frame with rebated trigger guard (trigger guard machined narrower than the frame). Type III is found on 1906 Navy, early 1906 commercial and American Eagle (some safety marked and some with stock lug), 1906 Swiss (DWM Cross in Sunburst, DWM Cross in Shield and Waffenfabrik Bern produced).

Type IV - New model short frame, squared off thin frame, rebated trigger guard. Type IV is found on early 1906 9mm Lugers (Commercial, American Eagle, Russian) and the 1907 .45 Caliber Test Luger. Also found on 1906 7.65mm Lugers such as: 1906 Bulgarian, M2 Portuguese, some Commercial, and some Swiss.

Type V - New model short frame, squared off thick frame (with the thicker area below the takedown lever), rebated trigger guard. Type V is found on virtually all Lugers produced after 1908, to include commercial and contract Lugers of the 1906 pattern with grip safety.

Dwight Gruber · 03-09-2004, 12:05 AM

Ron,

Thanks for the really excellent and informative tutorial. I have a couple of questions.

What frame details would one find on a 1904 Navy?

In Type II, to what 1902 American Eagle Test Lugers do you refer?

--Dwight

Ron Wood · 03-09-2004, 03:29 AM

Dwight,

The 1904 Navy frame is the old model flat laminated mainspring type "long" frame BUT with the addition of a stock lug. I will add the 1904 Navy to the Type I examples. Thank you.

The 1902 US Test Cartridge Counter Lugers had the American Eagle over the chamber.

Vlim · 03-09-2004, 09:02 AM

Ron,

Excellent. I immediately pulled the lugers from the safe and was able to find this info:

The 1913 1906-pattern KNIL fits the type V image like a glove.

The 1937 S/42 is slightly different (type VI ?)

in that the rebated trigger guard starts a little lower than on the type V.

Ron Wood · 03-09-2004, 12:58 PM

Gerben,

Thank you for your comments. Your observation on your S/42 is well taken and is one of the many additional variations that can be found among the different manufacturers. The different shaped transitions from the trigger guard to the front grip strap, the Mauser "hump", the variations in machining the groove in the stock lug - the list goes on and on. I will let that essay to another student of the Luger (mostly because I don't have examples of these "reproduction"

Lugers to photograph!).

Balder · 03-12-2004, 10:52 AM

Ron,

Very interesting and educational - thanks! I had to pull out my Lugers to check. The US Eagle test Luger fits the picture, but I was confused when I looked at my mongrel S/42 from 1938. What I am thinking of is the external little hole for the spring for the takedown lever, just in front of the trigger guard - it's not there. I see that your Type III doesn't seem to have one either, although it could be that the end of the spring is perfectly flush with the hole and doesn't show in the picture. Anyway, I believe my 1938 S/42 should have one, or did they come in different variants? I can't remember what this looked like on the other Lugers that I've owned over the years. Sorry about the picture quality, the Canon Ixus isn't that good on close-ups.

Regards,

Balder

Ron Wood · 03-12-2004, 11:49 AM

Balder, (Edited: While I was composing this masterpiece you have already discovered my observation. I must really try to be more speedy)

Actually, on my Type III example the spring does protrude a wee bit, but from the slightly elevated angle I took the picture it isn't visible.

Your photography is quite good. Unless my eyes deceive me, I do detect the end of the spring that has been finished flush with the frame, and the expected hole is present, just cleverly disguised.

03-08-2004, 08:36 PM	#1
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,020 Thanks: 1,090 Thanked 5,174 Times in 1,701 Posts	Early Frame Tutorial Most of our Luger Forum members are familiar with the designation of "Long Frame" and "Short Frame". The "long" frame and receiver is 1mm longer than the "short" frame and receiver, with the extra length occurring in front of the takedown lever. The threaded portion of the long and short frame barrels are also 2mm different in length and therefore are not interchangeable. However, some beginning Luger fans may not be aware that during early Luger development there were several transition steps from the old model long frame to the new model short frame. Here are Type categorizations of these transition steps that I have made into a little guide. These are my observations and I am sure this list may not be totally comprehensive and that exceptions do exist (all bets are off on 1920 era Lugers), but it is by and large representative. I welcome any recommended corrections, changes or comments. Type I - Old model long frame, thick rounded frame and trigger guard the full width of the frame. Type I is found on 1900 military and commercial Lugers, 1900 and 1902 Carbines, some 1902 Prototypes, and the 1904 Navy (with the addition of a stock lug). Type II - Old model short frame, squared off frame, trigger guard the full width of the frame, and "thin" frame below the takedown lever. Type II is found on 1902 commercial, American Eagle, and test Lugers (Dutch, German, and American Eagle), some 1902 Prototypes, and 1903 Commercial. Type III - New model long frame, rounded frame with rebated trigger guard (trigger guard machined narrower than the frame). Type III is found on 1906 Navy, early 1906 commercial and American Eagle (some safety marked and some with stock lug), 1906 Swiss (DWM Cross in Sunburst, DWM Cross in Shield and Waffenfabrik Bern produced). Type IV - New model short frame, squared off thin frame, rebated trigger guard. Type IV is found on early 1906 9mm Lugers (Commercial, American Eagle, Russian) and the 1907 .45 Caliber Test Luger. Also found on 1906 7.65mm Lugers such as: 1906 Bulgarian, M2 Portuguese, some Commercial, and some Swiss. Type V - New model short frame, squared off thick frame (with the thicker area below the takedown lever), rebated trigger guard. Type V is found on virtually all Lugers produced after 1908, to include commercial and contract Lugers of the 1906 pattern with grip safety. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction Last edited by Ron Wood; 12-22-2018 at 06:05 PM.

03-09-2004, 03:29 AM	#3
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,020 Thanks: 1,090 Thanked 5,174 Times in 1,701 Posts	Dwight, The 1904 Navy frame is the old model flat laminated mainspring type "long" frame BUT with the addition of a stock lug. I will add the 1904 Navy to the Type I examples. Thank you. The 1902 US Test Cartridge Counter Lugers had the American Eagle over the chamber. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

03-09-2004, 12:58 PM	#5
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,020 Thanks: 1,090 Thanked 5,174 Times in 1,701 Posts	Gerben, Thank you for your comments. Your observation on your S/42 is well taken and is one of the many additional variations that can be found among the different manufacturers. The different shaped transitions from the trigger guard to the front grip strap, the Mauser "hump", the variations in machining the groove in the stock lug - the list goes on and on. I will let that essay to another student of the Luger (mostly because I don't have examples of these "reproduction" Lugers to photograph!). __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction Last edited by Ron Wood; 05-17-2009 at 02:51 AM.

03-12-2004, 11:49 AM	#7
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,020 Thanks: 1,090 Thanked 5,174 Times in 1,701 Posts	Balder, (Edited: While I was composing this masterpiece you have already discovered my observation. I must really try to be more speedy) Actually, on my Type III example the spring does protrude a wee bit, but from the slightly elevated angle I took the picture it isn't visible. Your photography is quite good. Unless my eyes deceive me, I do detect the end of the spring that has been finished flush with the frame, and the expected hole is present, just cleverly disguised. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

03-09-2004, 12:05 AM	#2
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,901 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,316 Times in 430 Posts	Ron, Thanks for the really excellent and informative tutorial. I have a couple of questions. What frame details would one find on a 1904 Navy? In Type II, to what 1902 American Eagle Test Lugers do you refer? --Dwight

03-09-2004, 09:02 AM	#4
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,988 Times in 1,205 Posts	Ron, Excellent. I immediately pulled the lugers from the safe and was able to find this info: The 1913 1906-pattern KNIL fits the type V image like a glove. The 1937 S/42 is slightly different (type VI ?) in that the rebated trigger guard starts a little lower than on the type V.

03-12-2004, 10:52 AM	#6
Balder User Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Norway Posts: 288 Thanks: 20 Thanked 34 Times in 19 Posts	Ron, Very interesting and educational - thanks! I had to pull out my Lugers to check. The US Eagle test Luger fits the picture, but I was confused when I looked at my mongrel S/42 from 1938. What I am thinking of is the external little hole for the spring for the takedown lever, just in front of the trigger guard - it's not there. I see that your Type III doesn't seem to have one either, although it could be that the end of the spring is perfectly flush with the hole and doesn't show in the picture. Anyway, I believe my 1938 S/42 should have one, or did they come in different variants? I can't remember what this looked like on the other Lugers that I've owned over the years. Sorry about the picture quality, the Canon Ixus isn't that good on close-ups. Regards, Balder