J.T.T. stamping on test Lugers?

Balder · 12-21-2005, 04:24 AM

According to a mention by Bruce Canfield in the latest American Rifleman magazine, "All of the test Lugers had 'J.T.T.' inspection stamps" on the trigger housing. I've never heard about this, can anybody enlighten me?

Balder

Edward Tinker · 12-21-2005, 08:57 AM

He is wrong. The J.T.T. might be on a couple, but I ahve seen 8 or 10 real test pieces and it wasn't on them, plus I have seen pictures of another 20 or more and they didn't have it either...

Ed

trigger643 · 12-21-2005, 09:04 AM

The 2 that I have owned didn't have "J.T.T.", one had a flaming bomb, one didn't. They were within 300# of each other. I've known Mr. Canfield for a number of years, having met him while living in Shreveport. I'd rely on him for Springfield '03s and US M1917 rifles, beyond that, I think he wades into waters beyond his authority.

Lugerdoc · 12-21-2005, 12:31 PM

According to Michael Reese's book on the M1900 test lugers, 25 were left at the Springfield Arsenal for testing. It's possible that some or all of these have US inspector's initials on them. John T. Thompson was an inspector there during this period, but I'm want to closely compare these marking to some of his on other pistols that he was know to mark, before reaching any conclusions. TH

Jan C Still · 12-21-2005, 01:49 PM

Many years ago at my first Great Westernn Gun Show (LA), a collector showed me the same 1900 American Eagle Luger marked with the large flaming bomb or another so marked. At that time, the large flaming bomb stamp was regarded as a fake by collectors at the show.

Since then I have had the opportunity to examine a number of 1900 American Eagle test Lugers (in the Bannerman range) and have not again observed this stamp. Apparently this Luger or another like it has resurfaced. The assessment by collectors at the Great Western Gun Show many years ago is still valid.

"ALL test lugers had "J.T.T." (and the "Flaming Bomb"?) stamped on them." Knowledgeable Luger collectors will recognize this as a patently false statement. Surprising that such a respected magazine like the American Rifleman would allow such misleading collector information be published.
Jan

trigger643 · 12-21-2005, 07:56 PM

thank you, Mr. Still. I often wondered if the flaming bomb Test I had had been faked. It was one the right side of the battery, not the left, as reported in the American Rifleman, still, it left me wondering.

Jan C Still · 12-21-2005, 08:20 PM

trigger
Below is a link to a photograph of the AE test Luger in question. The flamming bomb is large and covers most of the area between the bottom and the top of the left receiver forward of the sideplate.
Jan

1900 AE Test Luger in American Rifleman! LRAZER http://www.gunboards.com/luger/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=6681

trigger643 · 12-22-2005, 04:28 AM

Mr. Still,

When I read my issue of American Rifleman, I did not like the AE Test, just as I didn't like my Test I owned with the flaming bomb. As a novice, compared to you (with only about 25 years collecting experience), when I get that "just can't put my finger on it" bad feeling, it's time to back away slowly. I would run to the hills about the one Bruce addressed in American Rifleman.

Perhaps someone of your calibre should write into the Dope Bag about this pistol. I could do it, but as an English Major, they will probably revoke my life membership status. Heck, I'll write them anyway. As an English Major, I need to be living on the edge.

Thank you again for taking the time to address this weapon. Some day, should fates allow, I'd like the "Ed Tinker" tour of your collection. I've been told by Ed that it is quite a wonderful experience.

Glen / aka / trigger

Edward Tinker · 12-22-2005, 06:55 AM

It amazes me that American Rifleman published this, but I guess they figured they were relying on an expert... But in such a specialized field, they could have researched it by coming to the forums and asking / verifying items?

I have the issue in question, guess I should pull it out and read the article....

ed

Jan C Still · 12-22-2005, 01:29 PM

Glen
Please post some detailed photographs of your test Luger. What is its serial number and the details of its markings.
Thanks
Jan

Lugerdoc · 12-25-2005, 11:31 AM

I alway hate to hear the term "Flaming Bomb" associated with the M1900 US Test AE lugers. I'm firmly of the opinion that there is no such thing, at least not original. The mark that most people call a "flaming bomb" is the inspector's marking inside the TD lever well (actually the astrological symbol for Taurus -- an up turned semi-circle over a circle) and also found on many none test lugers of this period. How mamy times do I have to tell you guys not to let your fantasies cloud your vision. Merry Chrismaka, TH

Dwight Gruber · 01-02-2006, 01:23 AM

I've been corresponding with a local collector about Test Eagles. He wrote Bruce Canfield ("American Rifleman") asking for some clarification of the article under discussion, and encouraged me to post the reply:

"The original Q&A asked if the pistol in question was John T. Thompson's "personal" pistol. It's not, hence my answer. The martial markings on a handful of 1900 Test Lugers is the subject of some controversy today and, in hindsight, that aspect should probably have not been addressed. I have no direct documentation to contradict SA Museum's statement although some students of the subject have a different opinion. I did not, and will not, comment on the originality of the pistol in question. The pistol may very well have fake markings added but, again, that was not the question asked and it against the American Rifleman's policy to give such opinions. Further clarification should probably be forthcoming in a future issue."

"To follow-up on my previous response, I think it would be helpful to the readership to quote Springfield Armory Museum's position on the subject of the 1900 Test Lugers so that no erroneous information will be perpetuated. I am contacting Mark Keefe (editor of the American Rifleman) regarding this matter. If you like, you can notify the Internet forum commentators accordingly. "

--Dwight

trigger643 · 01-05-2006, 04:34 AM

Jan, sorry it took me so long to get back, I moved a few times in the last couple of years and have been sorting through my stuff. I found my old FFL ledger yesterday.

Ser# 6121, mismatched toggle train (#07), side plate (#88), flaming bomb right side on battery, old heavy buff and reblue.

SER# 6385 on frame, unmarked barrel (replacement?).

#6121 acquired in trade 3/5/88, sold 4/18/88, SLC, UT.

#6385 acquired in trade 11/10/90, Seattle WA, Sold 11/10/90.

Glen

Ron Wood · 01-05-2006, 12:15 PM

Glen,
Thank you for your response to Jan. I didn't have #6385 in my records so I appreciate the addition!
Ron

Jan C Still · 01-05-2006, 12:30 PM

Glen
Thanks for the information.
Is the "flamming bomb" that you refer to the large one as in the American Rifleman article or the small DWM inspection stamp. The small DWM inspection stamp is properly found on the inside surfaces of some test Lugers.
Jan

hqbmw · 01-05-2006, 07:32 PM

Hi Ron,

My 1900 AE is NOT a test firearm. I do wonder if you are tracking the serial numbers of the other American Eagles? If so, it is #9220 and is unmarked with a 150mm pencil barrel chambered in 7.65mm. It is quite striking. The only other mark is the Germany export stamp under the S/N. All the small parts are numbered in the traditional two-digit method.

If you have any interest in the details, please PM me or phone me.

Thanks,
Jack Hiles
Mesa AZ
480 219 6676

12-21-2005, 04:24 AM	#1
Balder User Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Norway Posts: 288 Thanks: 20 Thanked 34 Times in 19 Posts	J.T.T. stamping on test Lugers? According to a mention by Bruce Canfield in the latest American Rifleman magazine, "All of the test Lugers had 'J.T.T.' inspection stamps" on the trigger housing. I've never heard about this, can anybody enlighten me? Balder

12-21-2005, 08:57 AM	#2
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,933 Thanks: 2,032 Thanked 4,530 Times in 2,092 Posts	He is wrong. The J.T.T. might be on a couple, but I ahve seen 8 or 10 real test pieces and it wasn't on them, plus I have seen pictures of another 20 or more and they didn't have it either... Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

12-21-2005, 09:04 AM	#3
trigger643 User Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Murfreesboro Posts: 502 Thanks: 0 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	The 2 that I have owned didn't have "J.T.T.", one had a flaming bomb, one didn't. They were within 300# of each other. I've known Mr. Canfield for a number of years, having met him while living in Shreveport. I'd rely on him for Springfield '03s and US M1917 rifles, beyond that, I think he wades into waters beyond his authority. __________________ "There are three reasons to own a gun: To protect yourself and your family, to hunt dangerous and delicious animals, and to keep the King of England out of your face." Ã¢?? Krusty the Clown

12-21-2005, 12:31 PM	#4
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 736 Times in 483 Posts	According to Michael Reese's book on the M1900 test lugers, 25 were left at the Springfield Arsenal for testing. It's possible that some or all of these have US inspector's initials on them. John T. Thompson was an inspector there during this period, but I'm want to closely compare these marking to some of his on other pistols that he was know to mark, before reaching any conclusions. TH __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 lugerdoc@charter.net

12-25-2005, 11:31 AM	#11
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 736 Times in 483 Posts	I alway hate to hear the term "Flaming Bomb" associated with the M1900 US Test AE lugers. I'm firmly of the opinion that there is no such thing, at least not original. The mark that most people call a "flaming bomb" is the inspector's marking inside the TD lever well (actually the astrological symbol for Taurus -- an up turned semi-circle over a circle) and also found on many none test lugers of this period. How mamy times do I have to tell you guys not to let your fantasies cloud your vision. Merry Chrismaka, TH __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 lugerdoc@charter.net

12-21-2005, 01:49 PM	#5
Jan C Still User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Box 240188, Douglas, Alaska, 99824 Posts: 463 Thanks: 0 Thanked 52 Times in 32 Posts	Many years ago at my first Great Westernn Gun Show (LA), a collector showed me the same 1900 American Eagle Luger marked with the large flaming bomb or another so marked. At that time, the large flaming bomb stamp was regarded as a fake by collectors at the show. Since then I have had the opportunity to examine a number of 1900 American Eagle test Lugers (in the Bannerman range) and have not again observed this stamp. Apparently this Luger or another like it has resurfaced. The assessment by collectors at the Great Western Gun Show many years ago is still valid. "ALL test lugers had "J.T.T." (and the "Flaming Bomb"?) stamped on them." Knowledgeable Luger collectors will recognize this as a patently false statement. Surprising that such a respected magazine like the American Rifleman would allow such misleading collector information be published. Jan

12-21-2005, 07:56 PM	#6
trigger643 User Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Murfreesboro Posts: 502 Thanks: 0 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	thank you, Mr. Still. I often wondered if the flaming bomb Test I had had been faked. It was one the right side of the battery, not the left, as reported in the American Rifleman, still, it left me wondering. __________________ "There are three reasons to own a gun: To protect yourself and your family, to hunt dangerous and delicious animals, and to keep the King of England out of your face." Ã¢?? Krusty the Clown

12-21-2005, 08:20 PM	#7
Jan C Still User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Box 240188, Douglas, Alaska, 99824 Posts: 463 Thanks: 0 Thanked 52 Times in 32 Posts	trigger Below is a link to a photograph of the AE test Luger in question. The flamming bomb is large and covers most of the area between the bottom and the top of the left receiver forward of the sideplate. Jan 1900 AE Test Luger in American Rifleman! LRAZER http://www.gunboards.com/luger/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=6681

12-22-2005, 04:28 AM	#8
trigger643 User Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Murfreesboro Posts: 502 Thanks: 0 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	Mr. Still, When I read my issue of American Rifleman, I did not like the AE Test, just as I didn't like my Test I owned with the flaming bomb. As a novice, compared to you (with only about 25 years collecting experience), when I get that "just can't put my finger on it" bad feeling, it's time to back away slowly. I would run to the hills about the one Bruce addressed in American Rifleman. Perhaps someone of your calibre should write into the Dope Bag about this pistol. I could do it, but as an English Major, they will probably revoke my life membership status. Heck, I'll write them anyway. As an English Major, I need to be living on the edge. Thank you again for taking the time to address this weapon. Some day, should fates allow, I'd like the "Ed Tinker" tour of your collection. I've been told by Ed that it is quite a wonderful experience. Glen / aka / trigger __________________ "There are three reasons to own a gun: To protect yourself and your family, to hunt dangerous and delicious animals, and to keep the King of England out of your face." Ã¢?? Krusty the Clown

12-22-2005, 06:55 AM	#9
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,933 Thanks: 2,032 Thanked 4,530 Times in 2,092 Posts	It amazes me that American Rifleman published this, but I guess they figured they were relying on an expert... But in such a specialized field, they could have researched it by coming to the forums and asking / verifying items? I have the issue in question, guess I should pull it out and read the article.... ed

12-22-2005, 01:29 PM	#10
Jan C Still User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Box 240188, Douglas, Alaska, 99824 Posts: 463 Thanks: 0 Thanked 52 Times in 32 Posts	Glen Please post some detailed photographs of your test Luger. What is its serial number and the details of its markings. Thanks Jan

01-02-2006, 01:23 AM	#12
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,902 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,317 Times in 431 Posts	I've been corresponding with a local collector about Test Eagles. He wrote Bruce Canfield ("American Rifleman") asking for some clarification of the article under discussion, and encouraged me to post the reply: "The original Q&A asked if the pistol in question was John T. Thompson's "personal" pistol. It's not, hence my answer. The martial markings on a handful of 1900 Test Lugers is the subject of some controversy today and, in hindsight, that aspect should probably have not been addressed. I have no direct documentation to contradict SA Museum's statement although some students of the subject have a different opinion. I did not, and will not, comment on the originality of the pistol in question. The pistol may very well have fake markings added but, again, that was not the question asked and it against the American Rifleman's policy to give such opinions. Further clarification should probably be forthcoming in a future issue." "To follow-up on my previous response, I think it would be helpful to the readership to quote Springfield Armory Museum's position on the subject of the 1900 Test Lugers so that no erroneous information will be perpetuated. I am contacting Mark Keefe (editor of the American Rifleman) regarding this matter. If you like, you can notify the Internet forum commentators accordingly. " --Dwight

01-05-2006, 04:34 AM	#13
trigger643 User Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Murfreesboro Posts: 502 Thanks: 0 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	Jan, sorry it took me so long to get back, I moved a few times in the last couple of years and have been sorting through my stuff. I found my old FFL ledger yesterday. Ser# 6121, mismatched toggle train (#07), side plate (#88), flaming bomb right side on battery, old heavy buff and reblue. SER# 6385 on frame, unmarked barrel (replacement?). #6121 acquired in trade 3/5/88, sold 4/18/88, SLC, UT. #6385 acquired in trade 11/10/90, Seattle WA, Sold 11/10/90. Glen __________________ "There are three reasons to own a gun: To protect yourself and your family, to hunt dangerous and delicious animals, and to keep the King of England out of your face." Ã¢?? Krusty the Clown

01-05-2006, 12:15 PM	#14
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,022 Thanks: 1,090 Thanked 5,178 Times in 1,703 Posts	Glen, Thank you for your response to Jan. I didn't have #6385 in my records so I appreciate the addition! Ron __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

01-05-2006, 12:30 PM	#15
Jan C Still User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Box 240188, Douglas, Alaska, 99824 Posts: 463 Thanks: 0 Thanked 52 Times in 32 Posts	Glen Thanks for the information. Is the "flamming bomb" that you refer to the large one as in the American Rifleman article or the small DWM inspection stamp. The small DWM inspection stamp is properly found on the inside surfaces of some test Lugers. Jan

01-05-2006, 07:32 PM	#16
hqbmw User Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Mesa AZ Posts: 228 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Hi Ron, My 1900 AE is NOT a test firearm. I do wonder if you are tracking the serial numbers of the other American Eagles? If so, it is #9220 and is unmarked with a 150mm pencil barrel chambered in 7.65mm. It is quite striking. The only other mark is the Germany export stamp under the S/N. All the small parts are numbered in the traditional two-digit method. If you have any interest in the details, please PM me or phone me. Thanks, Jack Hiles Mesa AZ 480 219 6676 __________________ Jack Hiles Mesa AZ