Heavily modified 08 for target shooting

Logger08 · 12-03-2017, 11:23 AM

Hello,

I am not only new to this forum but also to the topic of Luger 08. However I have already some target pistols.
I am interested in using an 08 for target shooting and found an offer for a, from my point of view, heavily modified 08 on the web.

I also found this thread about the Mauser version of an 08 for target shooting:
http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthread.php?t=37689
But I think what I found is something completely different.

A weaponsmith is offering a long 08 with a bull-barrel.
So far I do not know what was the basis for the modification and what exactly was all modified. The barrel and sights are obvious, a trigger modification was mentioned.
(Attached pictures come from the offer on the www.)

Now I would be interested in getting some feedback what you think about such an 08 and if you could recomend on going for something like this. The pricetag is 1650Euro.

Best regards,
Martin

Vlim · 12-03-2017, 11:42 AM

A pity that someone buffed it beyond recognition.
A nice 650 Euro shooter, if the rear sight survives the battering.

Logger08 · 12-03-2017, 11:45 AM

Hello Vlim,

I know what you mean (its more a Ruger now).
If I get you right, then the pricetag is much to hefty (1650Euro) for what I get?

Best regards,
Martin

DavidJayUden · 12-03-2017, 03:33 PM

I see an interesting target Luger, well done, yes, refinished but not overly buffed. I can't comment on values in the European community.
dju

Rick W. · 12-03-2017, 07:33 PM

Martin,

Thanks for posting the picts of the Luger. The target-ized versions of the Luger have always interested me.

I am not sure where is where on this thread, but suspect across the big pond with the Euro reference.

Just a few observations on the item. I am sure you are already up on these things; being an target guy.

The rear toggle mounting of an adjustable rear sight on a Luger is a rough area for sights, perhaps a bit of the reasoning behind the integral on the originals. The toggle moves around quickly and fairly abruptly; that means the newly attached rear adjustable sight sometimes flies off onto the ground.

I have seen some heavier duty rear sights, such like the old Bomar, attached to Lugers. I think that some will use a mechanical interface lock at a minimum, sometimes the dovetail(slotting) is amended with hard silver solder. The adjustable rear sight has mass to consider with the fast movement. If the rear sight was simply screwed to the toggle, it could be suspect to breakage.

Here in the states, some have used a carrier with a Smith Wesson revolver rear sight to good review. I have seen a stainless target Luger by Volquartsen that featured an adjustable rear sight, old names like Dewey in NY also featured adjustable sights and heavier barrels. Over the big pond, the name Werle comes to mind for target Lugers.

The Luger pictured is probably refinished as by the scratching in the blue, and the over colorization(in my opinion of course) of the strawed parts. Was intended as a improved shooter as the main emphasis.

Tis hard to get a big barrel on a Luger to function, the maker of this one, used fluting to lighten the barrel, but still is fairly longish for the balanced basic system of the Luger, again my opinion. As you know, overly hot loads in the Luger can batter the Luger surfaces trying to get a heavy, long barrel to function from the clip.

It was interesting to see how the banded front sight was affixed. My assumption of course, might be threaded underneath. Lots of ways to do banded sights, barrel diameter reduction to fit the oem band, expanding the band to the barrel taper and size, and boring the band to existing barrel taper and size. This one appears to be turned some at the muzzle end to accept the band, not against such, just an observation in method or possible useage. Sometimes this movement of turning the taper is so slight that the eye cannot pick up, but this one is fairly easy even for my sight.

Luger triggers are multi level sorta speak, lots of surfaces to keep track of to achieve a better pull/letoff. Takes some talent to produce such and have a high level of safety.

I am not sure I would be up to the Euros you said were required for this one, again just an opinion. I know how firearms can call to one.

Adjustable sights on a Luger to me is quite a boon, the improved sighting picture is much easier to pick up/see. I probably am one of the few that has scoped a Luger for my personal use using an offset removable mount on the left side of said Luger(left master eye).

No dog in this fight, just observations from here,

Rick W.

sheepherder · 12-03-2017, 07:50 PM

That is the first time I (I'm a noobie) have seen that name - "Büma Schönwald".

Is that a well known builder 'over there'???

Ron Wood · 12-03-2017, 08:17 PM

I could be wrong, but it looks to me like the entire rear toggle link with adjustable target sight was fabricated. That is a significant piece of work and could account for much of the asking price.

sheepherder · 12-03-2017, 10:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ron Wood

I could be wrong, but it looks to me like the entire rear toggle link with adjustable target sight was fabricated.

*That's* why the toggle knobs look so flat! He didn't chamfer their edges!!!

Logger08 · 12-04-2017, 02:12 AM

Hello,

First of all thanks a lot for your detailed replies.
I have to admit I am not very deep into mechanics and for sure not into Luger 08, so forgive me if I got somthing wrong.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick W.

Martin,
...
The rear toggle mounting of an adjustable rear sight on a Luger is a rough area for sights, perhaps a bit of the reasoning behind the integral on the originals. The toggle moves around quickly and fairly abruptly; that means the newly attached rear adjustable sight sometimes flies off onto the ground.
...

Over the big pond, the name Werle comes to mind for target Lugers.

Hello Rick,
Thanks for pointing that out.
Yes, I have read about it but I for sure did not give enough thought about this topic.

I found the page of Werle and had a look at the sports version shown. The rear sight is a different type, but I think your point is still something to keep in mind.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick W.

...
Tis hard to get a big barrel on a Luger to function, the maker of this one, used fluting to lighten the barrel, but still is fairly longish for the balanced basic system of the Luger, again my opinion. As you know, overly hot loads in the Luger can batter the Luger surfaces trying to get a heavy, long barrel to function from the clip.
...

Luger triggers are multi level sorta speak, lots of surfaces to keep track of to achieve a better pull/letoff. Takes some talent to produce such and have a high level of safety.

That is also a good point (which I did not consider at all).
I was aware of the fact concerning the ammunition, but I did not bring it into connection with the increased barrel weight.
As I will want to use factory ammunition this is for sure an important point.
Also the Luger gets a totally different balance and I am not sure I like that.
Concerning the trigger there is also an other point I need to keep in mind. I am used to sports pistol triggers (10N) and the usual Luger trigger is for sure a lot heavier. I am looking forward to getting the answer from the weapon smith also concerning the modification of the trigger.
So I for sure have at least to dry-fire it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sheepherder

That is the first time I (I'm a noobie) have seen that name - "Büma Schönwald".

Is that a well known builder 'over there'???

Hello Sheepherder,
The only thing I can say about this topic is, that Büma is an abbreviation of Büchsenmacher (gun smith).
As I do not live close to him I am also not able to say how long he is already in the business and google does not really provide much customer feedback. So as I am new to Luger as well I cannot answer your question.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ron Wood

I could be wrong, but it looks to me like the entire rear toggle link with adjustable target sight was fabricated. That is a significant piece of work and could account for much of the asking price.

Hello Ron,
I thought the sights were screwed but as I have already asked the question about all the modifications to the gun smith, so we might get an answer first hand.

When/If I get an answer from the gun smith I will also share this, perhaps this triggers some additional good feedback.

Thanks and best regards,
Martin

DonVoigt · 12-04-2017, 08:37 AM

The entire rear toggle has been modified or is a new made piece.
Notice the strange shape of the toggle knobs and the additional material on the sides of the toggle.

Unless I could buy it with a return privilege AFTER firing, I would stay far away.

Logger08 · 12-04-2017, 09:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DonVoigt

The entire rear toggle has been modified or is a new made piece.
Notice the strange shape of the toggle knobs and the additional material on the sides of the toggle.

Unless I could buy it with a return privilege AFTER firing, I would stay far away.

Hello DonVoigt,
I have to admit, that I did not see that modification or recognise that new part.
But more importantly what is your reason to be so strikt ("I would stay far away")?
Best regards,
Martin

Lugerdoc · 12-04-2017, 09:59 AM

The rear toggle link used for this modification is of East German manufacture. I have several of them NOS available @$35 each or 3 for $100 + S&H. TH

Rick W. · 12-04-2017, 12:10 PM

Martin,

In looking at the picts, looks like a basic Luger with new barrel, front sight affair, and rear sight affair. Perhaps a trigger update? Do those updates justify the price and of course, a gleem in your eye? I cannot talk, I like stuff like pictured but know some like the basics.

At one time, a poster here, Spuhr; I believe from Sweden; made a rear toggle from scratch from Swedish steel that had the capability of a larger rear adjustable sight, I am guessing at that time, the sight on the rear was a Bomar. I am not too sure if he still does such, but perhaps a net shot I guess. I have not looked for a Bomar sight here in the states for a long time, only guessing that they are still around. Spuhr was knowledgeable about the Luger system and updates. Over the years, I have gotten the same feel about Werle. Really only basic machining skills, but the Luger is a little more active than some other designs in function; and have to respect that.

G.T. is making some taller front sights for the Luger, basic Luger dovetail I have been reading, up to about 0.3" or so. Of course, that could be modded easily, I lobbied for the tallest basic sight; but my personal market sense is limited as only a shooter type here.

Rear sights can be strengthed to the toggle I believe thru a carrier affair, the carrier is inletted into the rear toggle proper, then the rear oem sight bosses(if you will allow) inletted into the carrier. Most I think(guess?) are hard silver soldered into place with the carrier at least. After that, it can get a bit hazy, as lots of ways to do things. I have seen a few that forego the carrier. There are picts of a few fellow poster's updated target guns on this site, the search function here is the ticket if so interested.

FWIW, I have a beater Luger(heavily) that I inletted a carrier that resembled the Luger Navy profile(2 position). I used a candle to smoke the carrier and fitted it to the rear toggle top surface. I then silver soldered it into place. Within the carrier I used a Smith Wesson rear revolver sight, cut off with a dremel wheel(harder than ghee whiz), and inletted the shortened rear sight into said carrier. I removed the elevation screw as the front sight was worked for my primary shooting distance. Works ok, but as in most things, the first prototypes you think are not so good cosmetically, and move on to other renditions. This one worked fine for me, but will not win any awards here.

So one might consider updating a basic Luger with the above mods, might be fun, but do admit most would not consider such over a ready to go piece, but who knows?

regards,

Rick W.

DonVoigt · 12-04-2017, 12:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Logger08

Hello DonVoigt,
I have to admit, that I did not see that modification or recognise that new part.
But more importantly what is your reason to be so strikt ("I would stay far away")?
Best regards,
Martin

I said "stay far away" UNLESS you have a return privilege; or are allowed to test fire before buying.

It is not a bad price for the work done, IF it works!

Logger08 · 12-05-2017, 04:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DonVoigt

I said "stay far away" UNLESS you have a return privilege; or are allowed to test fire before buying.

It is not a bad price for the work done, IF it works!

Hello DonVoigt,
Thanks for your explanation. Now even I got it.

Best regards,
Martin

Logger08 · 12-05-2017, 04:30 PM

Hello Rick,

Thanks for your input. I will check the leads and the forum for pictures as you mentioned.

The mods on above 08 look tempting to me, but I got the point to be careful especially about barrel-weight and rear sight. But if the setup really works, this would be interesting for me as I want to shoot the 08 for results and do not care much about the numbers.

I already had a look at the page from Werle. But I am currently not (yet) willing to spend that much money. The one shown at the top of the page is already a stretch.
Also modifying myself is not an option (no knowledge what to do and no proper tools).
So I am now waiting for the input from the gun smith and then I decide if it is worth travelling that far to have a close look (and perhaps have a chance to test fire it).

Best regards,
Martin

sheepherder · 12-05-2017, 05:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick W.

I am guessing at that time, the sight on the [Spuhr] rear was a Bomar. I am not too sure if he still does such, but perhaps a net shot I guess. I have not looked for a Bomar sight here in the states for a long time, only guessing that they are still around.

Just FYI...

I have a Bo-Mar BMCS sight + base in my spares, also the same sight on a Bo-Mar Tuner rib [1911]. I am fabricating a second rib and found that Kensight makes a clone of the Bo-Mar BMCS made from 4140 and physically identical to the Bo-Mar BMCS. I bought one for my rib.

http://stores.kensight.com/bomar-bmc...-square-blade/

Kensight is a division of Keng's Firearms. They also manufacture parts for common sights and clones of Accro, S&W, Elliason, and other popular sights.

http://stores.kensight.com/

Just a plug for a quality product.

sheepherder · 12-05-2017, 05:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Logger08

I will check the leads and the forum for pictures as you mentioned.

Here's Spuhr's thread -

http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthread.php?t=30533

Logger08 · 12-06-2017, 12:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sheepherder

Here's Spuhr's thread -

http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthread.php?t=30533

Hello Sheepherder,
That looks really nice.
From my perspective this mod is done with the same intent and basic idea.
But there is for sure no question which of two is better.
Best regards,
Martin

Logger08 · 12-08-2017, 02:27 AM

Hello,

Now I have received an answer from the gunsmith.
According to him there was much effort put into it and it shoots well. However he does not think it is up to the task with the high amount of rounds fired as a sportspistol. He anyway recommends using ammunition that does not generate high preasures.

Well, even though he did not answer all my more detailed questions, that still answers the general question for me.
I have to admit I do not really see the point about the modifications made. Why install adjustable sights if the P08 is made mainly for display?

So I will have to continue to search for a suitable shooter.
(I now have also written a mail to Werle.)

Best regards,
Martin

12-03-2017, 11:23 AM	#1
Logger08 User Join Date: Dec 2017 Posts: 24 Thanks: 4 Thanked 5 Times in 3 Posts	Heavily modified 08 for target shooting Hello, I am not only new to this forum but also to the topic of Luger 08. However I have already some target pistols. I am interested in using an 08 for target shooting and found an offer for a, from my point of view, heavily modified 08 on the web. I also found this thread about the Mauser version of an 08 for target shooting: http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthread.php?t=37689 But I think what I found is something completely different. A weaponsmith is offering a long 08 with a bull-barrel. So far I do not know what was the basis for the modification and what exactly was all modified. The barrel and sights are obvious, a trigger modification was mentioned. (Attached pictures come from the offer on the www.) Now I would be interested in getting some feedback what you think about such an 08 and if you could recomend on going for something like this. The pricetag is 1650Euro. Best regards, Martin Attached Thumbnails

12-03-2017, 07:50 PM	#6
sheepherder Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: ...on the 'ol Erie Canal... Posts: 8,181 Thanks: 1,398 Thanked 4,438 Times in 2,327 Posts	That is the first time I (I'm a noobie) have seen that name - "Büma Schönwald". Is that a well known builder 'over there'??? __________________ I like my coffee the way I like my women... ...Cold and bitter...

12-03-2017, 08:17 PM	#7
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,986 Thanks: 1,065 Thanked 5,088 Times in 1,674 Posts	I could be wrong, but it looks to me like the entire rear toggle link with adjustable target sight was fabricated. That is a significant piece of work and could account for much of the asking price. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

12-04-2017, 08:37 AM	#10
DonVoigt User Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: near Charlotte NC Posts: 4,677 Thanks: 1,439 Thanked 4,347 Times in 2,038 Posts	The entire rear toggle has been modified or is a new made piece. Notice the strange shape of the toggle knobs and the additional material on the sides of the toggle. Unless I could buy it with a return privilege AFTER firing, I would stay far away. __________________ 03man(Don Voigt); Luger student and collector. Looking for DWM side plate: 69 ; Dreyse 1907 pistol K.S. Gendarmerie

12-04-2017, 09:59 AM	#12
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 736 Times in 483 Posts	The rear toggle link used for this modification is of East German manufacture. I have several of them NOS available @$35 each or 3 for $100 + S&H. TH __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 lugerdoc@charter.net

12-03-2017, 11:42 AM	#2
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,032 Thanks: 1,018 Thanked 3,873 Times in 1,184 Posts	A pity that someone buffed it beyond recognition. A nice 650 Euro shooter, if the rear sight survives the battering.

12-03-2017, 11:45 AM	#3
Logger08 User Join Date: Dec 2017 Posts: 24 Thanks: 4 Thanked 5 Times in 3 Posts	Hello Vlim, I know what you mean (its more a Ruger now). If I get you right, then the pricetag is much to hefty (1650Euro) for what I get? Best regards, Martin

12-03-2017, 03:33 PM	#4
DavidJayUden Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 4,047 Thanks: 578 Thanked 1,414 Times in 887 Posts	I see an interesting target Luger, well done, yes, refinished but not overly buffed. I can't comment on values in the European community. dju

12-03-2017, 07:33 PM	#5
Rick W. User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 339 Thanks: 81 Thanked 359 Times in 198 Posts	Martin, Thanks for posting the picts of the Luger. The target-ized versions of the Luger have always interested me. I am not sure where is where on this thread, but suspect across the big pond with the Euro reference. Just a few observations on the item. I am sure you are already up on these things; being an target guy. The rear toggle mounting of an adjustable rear sight on a Luger is a rough area for sights, perhaps a bit of the reasoning behind the integral on the originals. The toggle moves around quickly and fairly abruptly; that means the newly attached rear adjustable sight sometimes flies off onto the ground. I have seen some heavier duty rear sights, such like the old Bomar, attached to Lugers. I think that some will use a mechanical interface lock at a minimum, sometimes the dovetail(slotting) is amended with hard silver solder. The adjustable rear sight has mass to consider with the fast movement. If the rear sight was simply screwed to the toggle, it could be suspect to breakage. Here in the states, some have used a carrier with a Smith Wesson revolver rear sight to good review. I have seen a stainless target Luger by Volquartsen that featured an adjustable rear sight, old names like Dewey in NY also featured adjustable sights and heavier barrels. Over the big pond, the name Werle comes to mind for target Lugers. The Luger pictured is probably refinished as by the scratching in the blue, and the over colorization(in my opinion of course) of the strawed parts. Was intended as a improved shooter as the main emphasis. Tis hard to get a big barrel on a Luger to function, the maker of this one, used fluting to lighten the barrel, but still is fairly longish for the balanced basic system of the Luger, again my opinion. As you know, overly hot loads in the Luger can batter the Luger surfaces trying to get a heavy, long barrel to function from the clip. It was interesting to see how the banded front sight was affixed. My assumption of course, might be threaded underneath. Lots of ways to do banded sights, barrel diameter reduction to fit the oem band, expanding the band to the barrel taper and size, and boring the band to existing barrel taper and size. This one appears to be turned some at the muzzle end to accept the band, not against such, just an observation in method or possible useage. Sometimes this movement of turning the taper is so slight that the eye cannot pick up, but this one is fairly easy even for my sight. Luger triggers are multi level sorta speak, lots of surfaces to keep track of to achieve a better pull/letoff. Takes some talent to produce such and have a high level of safety. I am not sure I would be up to the Euros you said were required for this one, again just an opinion. I know how firearms can call to one. Adjustable sights on a Luger to me is quite a boon, the improved sighting picture is much easier to pick up/see. I probably am one of the few that has scoped a Luger for my personal use using an offset removable mount on the left side of said Luger(left master eye). No dog in this fight, just observations from here, Rick W.

12-04-2017, 12:10 PM	#13
Rick W. User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 339 Thanks: 81 Thanked 359 Times in 198 Posts	Martin, In looking at the picts, looks like a basic Luger with new barrel, front sight affair, and rear sight affair. Perhaps a trigger update? Do those updates justify the price and of course, a gleem in your eye? I cannot talk, I like stuff like pictured but know some like the basics. At one time, a poster here, Spuhr; I believe from Sweden; made a rear toggle from scratch from Swedish steel that had the capability of a larger rear adjustable sight, I am guessing at that time, the sight on the rear was a Bomar. I am not too sure if he still does such, but perhaps a net shot I guess. I have not looked for a Bomar sight here in the states for a long time, only guessing that they are still around. Spuhr was knowledgeable about the Luger system and updates. Over the years, I have gotten the same feel about Werle. Really only basic machining skills, but the Luger is a little more active than some other designs in function; and have to respect that. G.T. is making some taller front sights for the Luger, basic Luger dovetail I have been reading, up to about 0.3" or so. Of course, that could be modded easily, I lobbied for the tallest basic sight; but my personal market sense is limited as only a shooter type here. Rear sights can be strengthed to the toggle I believe thru a carrier affair, the carrier is inletted into the rear toggle proper, then the rear oem sight bosses(if you will allow) inletted into the carrier. Most I think(guess?) are hard silver soldered into place with the carrier at least. After that, it can get a bit hazy, as lots of ways to do things. I have seen a few that forego the carrier. There are picts of a few fellow poster's updated target guns on this site, the search function here is the ticket if so interested. FWIW, I have a beater Luger(heavily) that I inletted a carrier that resembled the Luger Navy profile(2 position). I used a candle to smoke the carrier and fitted it to the rear toggle top surface. I then silver soldered it into place. Within the carrier I used a Smith Wesson rear revolver sight, cut off with a dremel wheel(harder than ghee whiz), and inletted the shortened rear sight into said carrier. I removed the elevation screw as the front sight was worked for my primary shooting distance. Works ok, but as in most things, the first prototypes you think are not so good cosmetically, and move on to other renditions. This one worked fine for me, but will not win any awards here. So one might consider updating a basic Luger with the above mods, might be fun, but do admit most would not consider such over a ready to go piece, but who knows? regards, Rick W. Last edited by Rick W.; 12-05-2017 at 05:08 PM. Reason: memory lapse

12-05-2017, 04:30 PM	#16
Logger08 User Join Date: Dec 2017 Posts: 24 Thanks: 4 Thanked 5 Times in 3 Posts	Hello Rick, Thanks for your input. I will check the leads and the forum for pictures as you mentioned. The mods on above 08 look tempting to me, but I got the point to be careful especially about barrel-weight and rear sight. But if the setup really works, this would be interesting for me as I want to shoot the 08 for results and do not care much about the numbers. I already had a look at the page from Werle. But I am currently not (yet) willing to spend that much money. The one shown at the top of the page is already a stretch. Also modifying myself is not an option (no knowledge what to do and no proper tools). So I am now waiting for the input from the gun smith and then I decide if it is worth travelling that far to have a close look (and perhaps have a chance to test fire it). Best regards, Martin

12-08-2017, 02:27 AM	#20
Logger08 User Join Date: Dec 2017 Posts: 24 Thanks: 4 Thanked 5 Times in 3 Posts	Hello, Now I have received an answer from the gunsmith. According to him there was much effort put into it and it shoots well. However he does not think it is up to the task with the high amount of rounds fired as a sportspistol. He anyway recommends using ammunition that does not generate high preasures. Well, even though he did not answer all my more detailed questions, that still answers the general question for me. I have to admit I do not really see the point about the modifications made. Why install adjustable sights if the P08 is made mainly for display? So I will have to continue to search for a suitable shooter. (I now have also written a mail to Werle.) Best regards, Martin