"Brain picking"

[danielsand]

OK,....after I got tired (mainly my eyes) of reading just about every post on this forum, I have a question (it's a newbie thing after all!).

Been using firearms in civ and military life for longer than I care to remember, and I think I have a pretty decent knowledge of them. I can see the weaknesses, shortcomings, etc. of any particular weapon. Based on that experience, I decided how to use my Parabellum.

However,.....I've found many posts where some knowledgeable collectors, owners, long time posters, and such state that they would NOT bet their life on their Lugers!

I admit freely, that my knowledge of the Luger is elementary at best (although I was "introduced" to one at the age of 6 or 7, but only unloaded, and as a "toy"). I have never fired this model, up until the time I came into the posession of this one. After shooting, cleaning, and examining this particular piece (1918 Erfurt), I can not see ANY disadvantages over some of my favored vintage pieces, up to this point (1911 Colt, or M57 Yugo Tokarev). Aside from the 9mm caliber bias in this country (in general), and the 8 round capacity, I think my Parabellum will do just fine in the field. And I am not looking for "devaluation", "possible parts breakage",...etc.

So I would like to ask all of you,......why not having the P08 as a "go to weapon", if the situation calls for a handgun?

What kind of inadequacies, malfunctions, etc. have you experienced with this model, that undermined your "faith" in it? And I am not calling REAL collectors (ones that collect historically important weapons, and are trying to preserve them for the future generations),.....looking for the members that shoot Lugers, just like they would shoot 1911, or a Glock.

Enlighten me please.

[Edward Tinker]

I am one of them that said I would not want to stake my life on a luger. That said, my artillery is a Erfurt that has been buffed and reblued - it will feed just about anything and is very reliable.

My issue is that using ball ammo, a 1911A1 is more reliable to me than a Luger. Now, if I had a luger that was extremely reliable would I use it in a SHTF scenario?

sure

[danielsand]

Originally Posted by Edward Tinker

I am one of them that said I would not want to stake my life on a luger. That said, my artillery is a Erfurt that has been buffed and reblued - it will feed just about anything and is very reliable.

My issue is that using ball ammo, a 1911A1 is more reliable to me than a Luger. Now, if I had a luger that was extremely reliable would I use it in a SHTF scenario?

sure

About an hour ago, I had a "WTH" moment, loaded two modern mags with JHPs, and opened it up. Not one issue! Feeds JHPs just like FMJs (cleaning it now). Aside from the capacity limitation (if one needs more than 8,...one is in BIG trouble), I can't see any disadvantages.
Don't get me wrong,...I LOVE Glocks, but I still need to find a flaw in this antique.

[lugersrkewl]

Jamming is the only fault I can find with a luger ( alot of variables and fixes go along with that I know )..... and it isnt as big a cartridge as a 1911 but Im with you danielsand they were and are magnificent pistols that were ahead of their time

[danielsand]

[QUOTE=lugersrkewl;.............. they were and are magnificent pistols that were ahead of their time[/QUOTE]

To me,....they are an artform.

Ever since I remember, I was fascinated with precission made mechanical things. So I started amassing two products that embodied the "mechanical precission" in my mind. High end mechanical watches, and firearms. Both have a lot in common. Aside that both are made out of precission machined metal, with extremelly close tollerances,.... performance of the both is also described as "accuracy"! Also,.....one measures the passage of the human "time" to precission, and one efectively stops it!

For me,.....Parabellum P08 is as much the work of art, as is 1665 Rolex Comex Seadweller (which I also own, among MANY others).

Somehow, I think I'm doomed,.......this Erfurt WILL NOT be my only P08!

[wlyon]

I own quite a few lugers. Have never and never will pack one. Why? I do not care for the 9mm for defense, also they do seem prone to jamming. They are not good if allowed to get muddy etc. , They are getting old and metal has a fatigue factor. If I feel the need to be armed (rare) I have a compact 45 that I carry. It will handle any ammo I feed it, has tremendous stopping power and never jams. If I have to protect myself it has to be with a reliable weapon that I can purchase reliable ammo for any place I am at. For what it's worth my opinion. Bill

[AR-50A1]

danielsand said "Aside from the capacity limitation (if one needs more than 8,...one is in BIG trouble)..."

A guy walked into a crowded bar waving his 1911 Colt .45 with a 7 round magazine plus one in the chamber and yelled:

"Who in here has been messing around with my wife?"

A voice from the back of the bar yelled back: "You'll need more ammo!"

Just another example of why you need to own high-capacity mags.

[danielsand]

Originally Posted by wlyon

I own quite a few lugers. Have never and never will pack one. Why? I do not care for the 9mm for defense, also they do seem prone to jamming. They are not good if allowed to get muddy etc. , They are getting old and metal has a fatigue factor. If I feel the need to be armed (rare) I have a compact 45 that I carry. It will handle any ammo I feed it, has tremendous stopping power and never jams. If I have to protect myself it has to be with a reliable weapon that I can purchase reliable ammo for any place I am at. For what it's worth my opinion. Bill

I respect your opinion Bill. You most likely forgot more about Lugers, than I ever hope to learn. One thing though,......"fatigue factor"? Would you care to elaborate? I own quite a few vintage weapons, and other things made of metal, and I have not experienced this fatigue.

[DavidJayUden]

1. Undeniably more prone to jamming than others.
2. And even less reliable with HP defense ammo.
3. The open toggle is more prone to catching on clothing in an unusual rolling around scenerio
4. Making the weapon ready to fire is a 2 handed operation, not one.
5. Like the 1911, pushing back on the muzzle renders it useless.
6. After spending all our hobby time analyzing problems with the Luger, it tends to shake your confidence. And confidence is critical in a self-defense situation. When it comes to nut-cutting, the last thing you want to cloud your judgement is wondering if you are about to hear "bang" or "click".

Just my thoughts.
dju

[nukem556]

I love Lugers, but to carry one with your life depending on it is sheer folly....even if you have a rare one that's 99-100% reliable, the ergonomics are terrible. The safety is slow and unnatural to disengage, and the sights are too small and fine to acquire a sight picture. I've shot enough tactical matches to know if you cant clearly see the front sight, you can totally MISS a target at 10 yards. If you have to carry a vintage 9mm in defense of your life, get an Inglis Hi-Power

[Ron Wood]

If you have to carry a hand gun in defense of your life, chances are very good that it will occur within 10-15 feet and at that range sights and the time to use them becomes moot. Beyond that range (10 yards is a looong way for anything other than a serious handgun marksman, beyond the ability of the average gangbanger...but he could get lucky), unless you are confronted by multiple thugs other options present themselves (there is no dishonor in taking evasive action). Any reliable handgun that can be brought to bear for serious social work is better than none at all.

[wlyon]

I can not explain the whys of metal fatigue. I just know that it occurs in all metal. We have condemned bridges because of metal fatigue. Aircraft are prone to metal fatigue. I had a 1916 Erfurt in very nice shape. All matching. I decided to sell it and ran a few rounds to make sure it fired. Third round out split the matching firing pin. You can find many stories like this of parts falling apart. Maybe an engineer can explain the process. I'm just an old retired Forester. Bill

[Lyn Islaub]

I think Bill, that it is a lot like people fatigue. The older you get and the more you get used, the more prone you are to have things break. My body seemed to work just fine until I hit 68 and then parts seemed to start failing. Lugers, in spite of their fine German engineering are probably just as susceptible to old age and lots of use.

[Sergio Natali]

I think that after Bill, Ron and David answers there is not much that I could add.

As far as I'm concerned, my home defence guns are a GLOCK 23 (40 S&W) kept loaded in my nightstand, and a WILSON CQB.
If I ever needed a gun for self defence in the street I think I would choose a good revolver in 38 Spl.

I would not trust an old Luger however I love it.

Consider that if Lugers were all that reliable they would have used for some more decades.
IMHO

[alanint]

I agree with all of the above issues. David's list put it most succinctly.

Aside from the close tolerances, which might affect reliability, my biggest concern is the placement of the safety. As a lefty, the safety lever is inconvenient to useless for me if conditions required the instant deployment of the pistol. As a striker fired weapon, I think carrying a Luger in any condition to be used instantly is as much a danger to the carrier as it might be to any perp.
Leaving it off safe would never do for me. The exposed sear bar could easely be actuated by any number of things coming into contact with it. I've seen enough sheared off firing pin sear engagement ears to give me the chills.
It's glamorous, its cool, but it simply isn't smart to trust your life to one when there are so many better and cheaper alternatives out there.

[danielsand]

Originally Posted by AR-50A1

danielsand said "Aside from the capacity limitation (if one needs more than 8,...one is in BIG trouble)..."

A guy walked into a crowded bar waving his 1911 Colt .45 with a 7 round magazine plus one in the chamber and yelled:

"Who in here has been messing around with my wife?"

A voice from the back of the bar yelled back: "You'll need more ammo!"

Just another example of why you need to own high-capacity mags.

That's funny! LOL

[mrerick]

The Parabellum pistol was a very early semi-automatic design that was quite successful, primarily because of it's adoption by several military organizations.

The toggle design goes back to Maxim and probably earlier. The Luger design represents decades of refinement, which pretty much stopped by 1949 (except for the fine work by Mauser in the 1970s)...

There have been decades of firearms design improvement since then. As a result, there are many safer and more reliable designs than the venerable Luger pistol.

I simply want the best and most appropriate handgun for self defense. That's why I would not rely on a Luger, even though I collect and admire them. In a gunfight, I would want every possible thing in my favor. That includes a reliable, compact, safe handgun.

In practical terms, there are reliability and safety issues inherent to the Luger design that you just don't have to deal with in more recent designs. In particular, the exposed sear is an issue in carry. That is one reason for the holster design. Concealing a loaded Luger would be an interesting experience.

[danielsand]

OK,......I appreciate all your responses. Some stuff that was said I wholeheartedly agree with, and some not.

"Metal fatigue": This happens because of repeated stress (usage), and NOT because of age (unlike the human body). Human can be kept in perfect isolation, not overworked, not stressed out (in theory), and the human body will still age and deteriorate. If one would have a NOS Luger, with zero round count, that pistol would still be "new", hundreds of years later (providing it was taken care off). Aircraft subframes develop the fatigue after certain number of take offs and landings (the most stressfull part of the flight).

"Caliber":Since I grew up in Europe, I consider 9mm caliber to be adequate (and I am not about to start the "caliber wars" here!). I believe in the shot placement, and not in "spray and pray".

"Sights": If one NEEDS to use the rear sight at all (within the usual distance of ANY pistol confrontation - 10 yards or less), one better train more. Most PDs training clases teach you to "put the front sight on the bad guy, and start squeezing". That's "spray and pray" at its finest. But if you practice the instinctive shooting, front sight is more than enough.

"Useless when the muzzle is depressed": Totally true, as ANY other auto out there.

Some other good points were brought up,.......exposed sear, tight tollerances, toggle jumping up and down, mud in the action,......

Thank you all for your responses. You did not bring up one single reason why I shouldn't use it the way I intend to. I will never conceal it, and take it to the streets (I don't spend much time in the "civilization", but when I do go down there, I pack a Glock (9mm).

I intend to asign it the "nightstand duty", and that's just an old habit, and not something I need. The main house on the ranch is 500 yards from the public road, and the grounds are patrolled by two GSDs, and one Alskan Malamute (Malamute will lure the intruder in, and love it to death, but the GSDs will tear the guy apart!). We never even lock the house when we leave for a day. There is also full time, live in groundskeeper in one of the lower houses, electric gate down below, motion controlled lights,......etc.

On three sides, the ranch is bordered by the National Forest, or BLM. When I ride out, I encounter a lot of wildlife, and I don't disturb it in any way. However,.....the back side of the property is not fenced (backed up to the mountain), and a lot of bears, coyotes, and mountain lions end up in my "back yard". For them,.....one shot into the ground is usually enough to make them leave.

And that's it. No gangbangers, no zombies, and no bad guys. In the shoulder holster on the horseback (to protect the weapon from branches), in condition three,........I think it will be fine. To my (fairily experienced) eyes, this weapon has no more than couple thousand rounds down the barrel (IF that). It was made for about 50K round count, before one should worry about the metal fatigue. No rust, no stress cracks, and it was taken care off, throughout it's life. I also have a Winchester 94 (in 30-30) on my saddle, in case something needs "more persuasion".

No,.....don't take it on the streets. Unless you practice a LOT under stress, can reload under stress, and carry spare mags, this old German workhorse will be out of place. You can't shoot it from the pocket, if you press it against the bad guy, it won't go bang, and if you drop it in the mud, it might become useless. Is it better to have the Luger than the brass knuckles and a knife? ........You bet!

[danielsand]

Just changed my avatar so you can see my "bodyguards".

On the left,....Erwin Johannes Rommel (no explanation needed).

On the right,.....Gina Montana (Tony Montana's sister in "Scarface").

Sorry Mods,.....if it's too much OT, please feel free to delete.

[alanint]

A friend of mine owns "My Little Friend"..!