WwMg 41 Marked Holster

[John Winter]

Didn't think that I'd missed many manufacturers, but this is a new one. Can't find in any book and my code book's at the ranch, but holster is a typical black 4" evidencing much use with what I believe to be a period replaced and stitched forward loop, with the usual large stamped P.08 to the rear. Instead of the normal Waffen Amt, next to the code and year is an eagle with Mg 10 beneath it. Could this have been a variant of the manufacturer Westfalische Waffenfabrik? Does anyone else have one?

[John Winter]

Many thanks to those who have read my description. A little research into WWII German terms has at least partially ID'd the holster. It's technically not military, hence the absence of Waffen Amt or Marine markings. The Ww is most likely Westfalisches Waffenfabrik, but the Mg is the abbreviation for Wehrmachtsgefolge, or auxiliary organizations. These included the DRK, HJ, LSW, NSKK, OT, RAD, RLB and SHD. The auxiliary status was intended to comply with, and to provide protection under the Geneva Convention as members of these organizations were technically not part of the Wehrmacht in 1941. The Mg 10 stamp under the Hoheitsabzeichen denoted the civilian inspector who accepted the holster. Does anyone have something similar with provenance?

[Ron Smith]

"The Ww is most likely Westfalisches Waffenfabrik, but the Mg is the abbreviation for Wehrmachtsgefolge, or auxiliary organizations. These included the DRK, HJ, LSW, NSKK, OT, RAD, RLB and SHD. The auxiliary status was intended to comply with, and to provide protection under the Geneva Convention as members of these organizations were technically not part of the Wehrmacht in 1941. The Mg 10 stamp under the Hoheitsabzeichen denoted the civilian inspector who accepted the holster."

Hi John,

I missed your post earlier. Jan Still's "Weimar Lugers" page 212 shows photos of a double date 1917/1920 DWM Luger with the E/Mg 10 stamp. Page 215 shows an alphabet commercial with an E/Mg7 stamp.

It was thought that these indicated issue to a Machine Gun unit, but is now thought to be an arsenal rework mark.

Where did you find your translation for the mark? Can you post a photo of the marks?

These marks have been a topic of conversation on Still's forum in the past.

http://luger.gunboards.com/topic.asp...rchTerms=Mg+10

Thanks...

Ron

[John Winter]

Ron,

Thanks for the input! I have Still's book and both illustrations are of WWII era reworks. The German military abbreviation for machine gun is MG and not Mg. There are numerous publications in my collection which ascribe the latter abbreviation as being interchangeable with the former. In my experience, the MG unit markings were widely used as grip strap markings on Lugers prior to the NS era and the advent of highly mechanized warfare and are in fact, relatively common. By 1939, the machine gun had been widely integrated into all aspects of the German tactical philosophy down to the infantry squad level. Had each machine gun crew been issued with specially marked weapons, the number of these so marked would be colossal. Also, the hypothesis that the Mg abbreviation indicated issue to some form of a national machine gun school is suspicious because this training initially took place at the divisional and regimental levels and even actual unit marked weapons from this period are controversial. There are numerous online sites containing info on German military abbreviations, but the best source in my collection is a U. S. Army WWII booklet.

Photos of Wehrmachtsgefolge units usually depict sidearms of lighter calibre. Except for time spent in college and the military, I've been collecting and trading Lugers since 1957. Over the years, I have owned mostly common examples, but this holster is a definate departure from the norm. I'll send pix as soon as I learn how.

[Ranger-CPT]

John, your holster was manufactued at the Heereszeugamt Magdeberg. The HZa's appear to have produced limited numbers of leather goods in the 1940/41 era. Holsters with the WwSu marking are also known, which was the Spandau depot. Did this holster come with a luger in it? Ryan

[John Winter]

Ryan,

Thanks for the info. Weren't Heeres Zeugamts usually followed by a number? I'm familiar wth the WwSu marking and this isn't it, the marking is WwMg over a larger 41. The national eagle is larger and more elaborate that those used on Waffen Amts and Zeug Amts and it has an Mg 10 directly beneath it. Other than the typical large P.08 on the rear, there are no other visible markings and the color has always been black.

The gun in the holster was a common byf 41 "P" block in about 95% condition, but I have no way of knowing if it came back with the holster.

[Lyn Islaub]

John,
I would be really interested in a photo of the 'Mg 10" marking on your holster. I own the P-08 marked "mg 7" ( I use the lower case because I am almost positive that they are lower case) referenced above by Ron and would like to see how the markings compare. I'm not as competent as most in the arena of posting photos, however I've got the fallback position of the picture in Weimar Lugers.
Regards,
Lyn

[John Winter]

Lyn,

Will send pix as soon as I know how. The "M" in this case is definately upper case. Thanks.

JW