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Unread 09-14-2005, 04:13 AM   #1
maddog350gt
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Default Krieghoff Rework

Hi all,

I have been looking in my books and haven't found any information on a luger I saw at the local gun show this weekend. It appears to be a Krieghoff rework of a WWI DWM luger with lazy crown/N stamps on the Breechblock, left side frame, left receiver and the 6" 30 caliber barrel. The gun is in excellent 98% condition (does have a chipped left grip panel but the chip is there glued in). Serial number is 9007 h in the military style, I can't remember if it had a date on the chamber or not, I don't think so. The rear of the toggle was stamped Germany. The toggle is marked with the DWM scroll mark. There is no side frame markings, the only indication it is a Krieghoff rework are the Lazy crown/N stamps.

The owner is an older gentleman who is trying to sell off his guns, although this one had a sign that said not for sale. He did indicate he would sell it if he got a "good offer" I ask him what that would be and he said he would know if when he heard it.

I wish I could post pictures but I don't have the gun. I doubt I could get permission to photograph it. I will try.

Dwight Gruber was with me and we both looked at it, Dwight (who's opinion I value very much) felt it was only worth about $800. I thought it's rarity might make it worth more, but I can't find any definitive information on this variety. I know it would be valuable if it were Krieghoff side frame inscribed, but it is not. What do forum members think? Is this a desirable piece? Would Krieghoff collectors be interested in this type of rework? How rare are these reworks? How many with 6" 30 caliber barrels? What would be a fair offer?

Thanks,
Bob M.
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Unread 09-14-2005, 10:23 AM   #2
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Hi Bob,
With it being so vague. I would side with Dwight's opinion. No absolute verification of it's originality would put it in the 1920 Commercial catagory, I would think.

Just my opinion. Ron
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Unread 09-14-2005, 10:41 AM   #3
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Bob,

See Gibson's "Krieghoff Parabellum", p.140, II Reworks; also photos on p.113.

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Unread 09-14-2005, 11:06 AM   #4
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Dwight,

Thanks for the heads up. I looked at that page and quit after scanning the first two sections that indicated guns with Krieghoff logos. I guess I was tired.

Still doesn't say much about how many of these were made, although the comment about reworking anything that came through the door hints at lots of units.

How about the Krieghoff enthusiast out there what do you think of these reworks? Are they something that should be in a Krieghoff collection? Are they hard to find?

I am beginning to agree with you and Ron, I might call and direct the owner to this site and let he see what the experts are saying. He may decide not to sell at all. I am sure he thinks it is worth a lot more.

Thanks,
Bob M.
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Unread 09-14-2005, 11:22 AM   #5
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The "lazy" Crown/N pretty much rules out 1920 Commercial.
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Unread 09-14-2005, 03:36 PM   #6
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Bob,
I am going to just add my two cents here and state my opinion. The lazy 'N' on page 113 of the Kreighoff book just indcates that the weapons pictures complied with goverment regulations at that time. This proof mark does not necessarily say that this was a Kreighoff marking ONLY. I believe that there were many refurbisherers of Lugers (Simson may be another one) and that they all had to comply with the law. Kreighoff was just one of them.
I have seen some refurbished Lugers by Kreighoff and I remember that they had "Kreighoff" stamped somewhere on them. The locations of these stampings varied all over the place. But this does not make them a Kreighoff Luger. Just a Luger refurbished by Kreighoff.

There would be a significant difference in price between a 'REAL' Kreighoff (S-code,1936 and up), a refurnished Luger with Kreighoff stamped somewhere on it and a Luger with just a lazy 'N' on it. I can't tell if your price on this Luger was a 'fair' price or not. Many dealers/sellers don't have a clue on what they have. If something indicates that their Luger 'might' have a connection to Kreighoff, then the dealer will automatically jack up the price. Pricing is an art and not science, especially in todays market.
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Unread 09-14-2005, 05:55 PM   #7
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Bob,
Have a double date police with lazy N's on RIGHT side of receiver and frame rail as well as barrel and breech block, but no further markings indicating Krieghoff. Some of the good folks on the Forum have identified it as a very early Krieghoff rework, others disagree. It was originally sold to me many years back by a very knowledgeable Luger collector as a Krieghoff/DWM double date. Have never been able to get a definative conclusion, but much supposition from many long term collectors. Another example of the wonder full world of Lugers.
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Unread 09-14-2005, 06:12 PM   #8
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Big Norm,

Thanks for the information, This is the kind of info I would like to have in order to really understand what this particular piece is. I don't own the gun and may not even make a bid on it. It does look like a nice unit for a 20's era rework. I have not been able to tear it down so I don't know if there is any acceptance stamps that would indicate a Krieghoff connection or not. I am not sure the owner would allow me to tear it down unless I meet his unknown offer limit.

I do think that if I could establish that it was reworked by Krieghoff (that in at least some people eyes) it would be more valuable than other reworks of the time. How much, again I am in the dark? To me at least it would justify a higher offer as I think these guns (if authenticated) will rise in value faster than other 20's reworks.

I would not even suggest that it would ever have the status or value of an originally built HK, or one that was stamped with the HK logo, but I have seen some other guns, particularly Simson reworks (with eagle/6 stampings) being sold at higher dollar amounts based on their Simson connection. I would certainly think that a Krieghoff connection would be at least as valuable.

I now have information I can share with the owner and he can make his own assessment as to the value of the gun and what offer he is willing to accept. I'll keep you posted if I find out anything else about this gun or if I make an offer on it.

Thanks for the help,
Bob M.
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Unread 09-15-2005, 12:15 AM   #9
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Bob,
whats going on here? You mean that he will not let you tear it down until you buy it first? Thats big of him. He has a gun for sale and you are a legit customer who is doing him a favor by considering purchasing it. He wants your money more than you want the gun. No matter how much you want the gun. You should POLITELY ask him if you can disassemble the gun to look for markings. If he refuses, then walk away. There are other Lugers out there just crying to be added to your collection. Don't become the proverbial greater fool.

If he lets you take the gun apart, then be very polite and remember to put it back together the way you found it. Even if you decide that you don't want the gun.
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Unread 09-15-2005, 12:48 AM   #10
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Walt,
in my best of humble opinions...if it doesn't say that its a Kreighoff, then it isn't a Kreighoff. From reading this forum for a few years, even if it says its a Kreighoff, it still MIGHT NOT be a Kreighoff. I would have to know who the "very knowledgeable Luger collector", that you mentioned, is before I would say anything about him. Some of those people ain't as knowlegable or as ethical as one would expect.

Another humble opinion...a refurbished Luger is not be a Kreighoff, no matter what internal or external minor proof markings are on it. It is a restored Luger. (Boy, am I going to catch the dickens on that one )
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Unread 09-15-2005, 01:35 AM   #11
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Bob,
I just reread your original post. I think that Dwight is close on the price, but still on the high side of an artistic and fluent price range. What bothers me is that you say this may be a refurbished by Kreighoff Luger that is 98%. I can't put my finger on what bothers me about that. Maybe its the fact that I think that this is a restored, reblued Luger with some parts that have been replaced (6 inch barrel, 30 cal with military markings?). And that $800 is still a lot of money for what I think is a shooter.

But I am a collector and you might be a guy who just wants to have a Luger to shoot. Nothing wrong with that. But 30 cal ammo can sometimes be hard to find and is more expensive to purchase. But the sound of 30 cal ammo being fired is a fun sound. More of a CRACK! then 9mm. As a collector, I may be more critical then I should be and I apologize for that.
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Unread 09-15-2005, 02:47 AM   #12
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Big Norm,

The 6" barrel on this gun is proofed with a c/N, no military marks. In addition to the lazy c/n on the left receiver and left frame rail, the breechblock is stamped with a c/N on the top surface.

For comparison, my Simson rework of a 1st Issue DWM is stamped c/N on the right frame and barrel, no commercial proof on the receiver or breechblock.

To my mind, this gun fits the description I cited above in Gibson as a Weimar-era export gun--call it a "1920 Commercial" for lack of a better term. My book-larnin' exercise suggests to me that Krieghoff is the most likely of the knowable connections.

To my mind also, this gun is more that "just " a shooter. I went through this mental exercise after I bought my 1912 Erfurt which had been rebarrelled with a commercial--GERMANY marked only--Artillery barrel. It took several days and several correspondents wiser than I to convince me that this was representitive of a legitimate variation and I should not rebarrel it. So I think it is with the gun at hand.

Also, in defense of the seller, I think it is worthwhile to review the circumstances. The tableholder was an old codger (descriptive, not perjoritive), obviously not a dealer. The gun was clearly displayed with a sign saying Not For Sale; it was well into the conversation before he allowed as to how he might be willing to sell if he heard the right offer. Maybe he was just cleverer than me and Bob. If I recall correctly, the conversation never got as far as taking the gun down, there was simply the consideration of further contact before we all parted ways. I don't know if Bob has followed up yet or not.

I'm interested in how this progresses.

--Dwight
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Unread 09-15-2005, 03:37 AM   #13
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Big Norm,

No need to apologize, I like to shoot them also but I am primarily a collector. I am sure the gun is a rework of a WWI DWM gun done in the early 20's. I don't think it has been re-blued or altered since it left Germany. The 6" barrel has a crown/N proof and appears to have been assembled to the gun before it left Germany. No military markings on the barrel, and as Dwight pointed out if the barrel had not been part of the gun it would not have been proofed (spare parts were not proofed before shipment). The crown/N is the same pattern and size as the C/N proofs on the receiver, frame and breech block.

The owner is in his 80's and is hard of hearing, the gun was displayed with a sign "not for sale" it was only after I asked to look at it and we talked for a while that he said he might sell it if the offer was good enough. My thoughts were that he had the "not for sale" sign to keep people from telling him it was over priced. I haven't had a chance to call him and talk since the show; too many late nights at work this week. I will try to touch bases with him this weekend. When we talked at the gun show, he told me that Don Hallock looked at the gun back in the 80's and told him it was a Krieghoff rework, and that it was worth a lot of money. He may not listen to anything else.

From the style and placement of the C/N stamps it is consistent with what is listed in all of the Luger books for Krieghoff rework markings but it does not have a Krieghoff logo that I can see. It also has the same polishing pattern on the takedown lever that is associated with Krieghoff manufactured guns. This is not a proof only an observation.

At the time I looked at it I didn't ask to take it down, I didn't think the owner would have agreed and that is just my intuition. I should have asked. I think if I show more interest, and especially if I can provide any additional information. I think he will agree to let me disassembly it. If I find some other indications of Krieghoff involvement it would make it worth pursuing, if not I will probably let it go. In any case it is an impressive looking gun as the finish is very good and it has not been abused. The current owner said he bought it from a private party in the early 60's shot it once and put it away. According to him it has not been shot since.

I did learn some things here, most note worthy is that other manufacturers or re-workers used the same lazy crown/N rework proof as Krieghoff. So providence can't be established with only the proof marks.

Ron Wood; you made a comment that I don't understand that if it were a lazy crown/N it couldn't be a 20's commercial? This might be true for DWM reworks but if you go to Gibson page 140 (as pointed out by Dwight), Krieghoff (and from the other collectors here, others also) used the lazy crown/N proofs on commercial reworks in the early 20's. Do you have information to the contrary? Bye the way good to hear from you, I hope everting is going well in El Paso; do you plan to go to Reno in November?

Thanks for the help
Bob M.
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Unread 09-15-2005, 09:59 AM   #14
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You are right Bob, I didn't fully engage my brain on that lazy Crown/N remark...I was thinking DWM/BKIW.
Reno in November is a possibility. Can't say for sure yet.
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Unread 09-15-2005, 02:13 PM   #15
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Big Norm,
Too many years under the bridge to remember the name of the gentlemen I picked up the "DMW/Krieghoff" from. Know he was a well respected dealer in the Atlantic City, NJ area and had a personal collection that would knock your eyes out. In my now aged and muddled mind, I recall him having about everything except the fabled .45 caliber piece. Anyway, I do recall it was his statement at the time, although this was long before the present books by Jan, Gipson and others were published, that only Krieghoff used the lazy crown N on the right side of the receiver and frame rail as ID for their very early reworks prior to the Krieghoff stamping. Where his information came from, I don't know. Do know in the many years past, I have been able to locate only 2 other Lugers in the hands of dealers or collectors with the lazy N's on the right side of the receiver and frame rail. Really wish I had never bought the damned thing as its been a source of confusion every time I try to get a definative "What is it?"
All the best......Walt
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Unread 09-15-2005, 04:38 PM   #16
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Walt,

Your gun sounds similar to the one I am looking at but the one here in the Portland area (Oregon) has the lazy Crown/N on the left side of the frame and receiver, as you look from the back of the gun. The Crown/N on the breechblock is on the right side of the extractor. My 37 Krieghoff has the Eagle/2 stamps on the Right side but this is obviously a Krieghoff made piece not a rework. I would be interested if you could post pictures? I will post pics if I can get the owner to agree.

Thanks,
Bob M.
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Unread 09-15-2005, 07:18 PM   #17
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Bob,
Will see if I can get the wife, the family computer expert, to post some pics for your info. On my piece, all crown N's are on the right side, receiver, frame rail, breech block and barrel. Gun was apparently reworked again, presumably by the police at some later date as the crown N's on barrel and breech show what, for lack of a better description, appear a deliberate attempt to knock off the posssible Krieghoff connection. All other markings are clear and well defined. You'll see what I mean if I can get some decent pictures across.
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Unread 09-15-2005, 11:26 PM   #18
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Bob...Right side lazy N's on receiver and frame and partially obliterated lazy N on barrel.
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Unread 09-16-2005, 12:41 AM   #19
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God! What a great discussion. When I read Bob's original post, I erroneously assumed that he was a newbie who got carried away at possibly buying a real Kreighoff at a bargain price for a Kreighoff. I now see that I was wrong on that count. But I am very happy in now knowing that he will look at this gun armed with knowledge that he may not have had before this discussion. If he decides to purchase this Luger, he will know what he is purchasing. This is what this forum is about.

I know Don Hallock and I think that he is a nice guy. I have bought a few Lugers off of him in the past. However, I think that his area of expertise is in Mauser Lugers. (In his valuable magazine lists, he always has something to say about them). I believe that he has written for Jan Stills book in that catagory. But I don't know how much he knows about Kreighoffs. There is an awful lot to know about HK's and there are very few people who are whiz-bangs there. With me, I just try to read everything that JohnD posts here in hopes of avoiding getting myself in expensive trouble.

I am sorry if I came across as being a hard nose. I was just trying to do the right thing by Bob. Maybe I did. I hope so.
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Unread 09-16-2005, 10:03 AM   #20
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Bob....Breechblock with partially obliterated crown N on right.
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