AMMO POWER, EJECTION PATTERN AND THE MAINSPRING??

[Heinmot]

With my now dead-reliable 42 Luger, I am wondering a bit about the now-functional setup.

First, I had to replace the mainspring with a Wolff and as it turned out, a 36-lb {2 lb lighter than what I was told is normal} and I had to change mag springs, too.

I ONLY shoot standard loads {several hundred rounds now of S&B, and Win white box 115's but did shoot a box of experimental American Eagle 147 FMJ Flat Points}.

Ejection pattern is very high, and generally to the right-ish front-ish of the shooter, with an occaisional case ending up just to the left of the shooter. Both me and the kid are left-handed which can alter a bit normal ejection patterns from righties, I know.

Here's my question:

The gun likes the lighter mainspring for reliability. It is totally reliable now.

BUT, am I beating the gun up using a lighter than normal mainspring?

I figure a lot of Lugers, being old, have essentially, for all intents and purposes, lighter than normal springs due to set over the years, but I am just curious.

I will NOT be shooting +P ammo in the gun, and from what I have read, some seem to get best reliability WITH +P. I don't shoot +P in my other 9mm's, and that was one reason I wanted to have the Luger setup to handle normal ammo.

Anyway, any comments?

[Thor]

My guess is that it is probably okay, but at the cheap price of Wolff springs why not try a full power spring. You obviously like tinkering with the gun and can easily change the main spring. Dont loose any sleep over it, get another spring and try it, if it doesnt lock back each time then you probably have went too far in strength, if not, it will probably perform just as well as the one you have in it now but the ejection will soften up some.

[Heinmot]

Probably a good idea.

Is there a "normal" pattern to Luger ejection, and if so, what is it?

[Thor]

I think the pattern I have seen is more random than typical, they almost always land in different spots. I think the key to the investigation is the STRENGTH of the ejection, you want them to come out a bit briskly but not launched 20 feet in the air. I know on many Artillery models with a new spring in them the ejection is so soft (too soft) that they kind of dribble out of the gun. In that case I usually test them with a little more powerful load which gets them up and perking correctly. Perhaps you can have someone fire the Luger while you watch the cases eject with the sun behind you to catch the brass reflection so you get an idea of how high they are going. I would say anything over 10' in height is too much.

[Heinmot]

Thanks.

Ten feet above the gun is just about right-on to what I'm getting now. This seemed pretty high to me in comparison to my HP's or 1911.

Of course, the CZ52 shoots two ways, the bullet out the muzzle and the case out the side and back, at HIGH velocity that!!!

So my Luger isn't too bad I guess.

[unspellable]

Put a double layer of masking tape across the rear of the frame. If the tail of the rear toggle link dings the tape without cutting it, you're as close as you will ever get in this life.

[Heinmot]

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by unspellable:
<strong>Put a double layer of masking tape across the rear of the frame. If the tail of the rear toggle link dings the tape without cutting it, you're as close as you will ever get in this life.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">I don't mean to be a dolt, but I'm not sure what you mean...

[Thor]

He is talking about the location where the tab on the lower side of the rear toggle at the back will contact the frame just about the lanyard staple. This occurs at the maximum rearward movement of the toggle train/receiver.
Perhaps the picture will help.
If you look on a blued Luger you can see the mark the toggle leaves on the frame.

[Heinmot]

Mmmm...

What is the reason for the tape?

[Ron Wood]

Heinmot,
The tape is a "crush" indicator. As Unspellable stated, when you fire the Luger with a given load, if the toggle extension dents the tape but doesn't cut it, the spring and load are just about perfect. If there is no mark on the tape, the spring is too strong for the load and you are not getting a full toggle motion in recoil. If the tape is cut/strongly crushed, the spring is too light for the load and the toggle is cycling too violently.

[HCS]

Hi

I have had some problems with my Luger too, with the original mainspring and Sellier & Bellot FMJ 124 grs, i had a lot of jammings with the round stuck half in the chamber pointing half way up. I then bought a Wolff calibration set and put in the 36 Lb. mainspring and changed the spring in the magazine with the Wolff type. The problem was the same with both Sellier & Bellot FMJ 124 grs and Fiocchi FMJ 123 grs, but I had some bullets marked PMC (don't know more about them exept that they are weaker than Sellier & Bellot FMJ 124 grs, but I will buy some of them soon, then i'll know) they don't have FMJ and they performed perfectly. I have bourght another set of Wolff calibration springs (the other set are temporary lost due to moving from apartment to house last summer, hope to find them soon, because the original mainspring is lost too)the funny thing is that if I compare the new Wolff 36 Lb. mainspring to the old Wolff 36 Lb. mainspring, that I have had in the Luger for about 1 year, there is a difference in about �½ inch in length. I now have installed the Wolff standard 38 Lb. mainspring and I will try it out on my next trip to the range. I have changed the springs in my magazines too. My question is: are the Sellier & Bellot FMJ 124 grs and the Fiocchi FMJ 123 grs too "hot" for such and old Luger and should I use the weaker PMC rounds in the FMJ version and then test which Wolff mainspring to use?
I hope my explanation is understandable and that someone can give me an advise, since I don't want to beat up my Luger(G date) since it's the only one i've got.

Henrik
Denmark

[Heinmot]

Henrik, God dag!!

Your explanation is definitely understandable. Your Engelsk is way better than my Dansk!!

I am surprised that the changing of the magazine springs and mainspring did not solve the problem.

How many rounds have you fired since making the changes?

One other thing you might try is to slick up the insides of the magazines. This made a noticeable difference in the feel of mine as the follower "climbed" up the mag. Even with the new springs in the new Mec-Gar mags, there was slight hesitating as the follower climbed up the mag.

I degreased the magazines, and with new spring installed, I took the loading tool and compressed the spring and released them {under control of the loading tool; I didn't let the spring go} over and over rapidly probably 100 or more times for each magazine. Then I flushed the mag out with WD40, and then lubed with TriFlow.

This procedure made a BIG difference in the slickness of the feeding. Also, I found that even the slightest dent in the side of the mag {present on my original fxo mag} would cause a hangup or stoppage.

It seems that the name of the game is to get those bullets up throuhgh the magazine as quickly as possible, so anything you can do to help that should improve feeding; try inside mag lubrication, stronger mag springs, possibly a weaker {36 lb.} mainspring {to slow down cyclic rate}.

These rascals are real troublemakers, but when they work they are a ton of fun!!

Is your Luger a commercial pistol, or did you or someone else take it from the Tyskers back in '45?

[unspellable]

The S&B and Fiocchi loads are OK. Any current standard commercial 9 mm load will not be too hot unless it is marked +P in which case it isn't standard. Worry about the OAL rather than how hot it is. I would avoid the Russian commercial stuff as we have had reports of over pressure rounds.

A spring will take a set when first installed, that is why the Wolff 36 lbf spring in your pistol is slightly shorter than the new one, aside from spring to spring variation due to tolerances.

[Heinmot]

Henrik,

one other question;

How did the length of the Wolff springs compare to the original {German} spring?

[HCS]

Hi

Hermo I think that the reason why the change of the mainspring and the magazine spring did't do it, was because I installed the 36 Lb. mainspring, I thourght that the ammo I had (Sellier & Bellot FMJ 124 grs) was more weak than the original german ammo and therefore I installed the 36 Lb. mainspring and I therefore had problems because of the ammo is too hot to the 36 Lb. mainspring. My Luger is a G-date "liberated" from the Germans in 1945. I can't find the original right now, it is stored somewhere in with all my other stuff, because I moved last year, therefore I don't know the length of it.

Henrik
Denmark

[Vlim]

Hi Henrik,

S&B is actually very, very close to the original spec DWM 9mm bullets. I've shot both 115gr and 124gr S&B and difference is not great, the 124gr has a mildly better accuracy.

After shooting several lugers, I found that finding the right magazine was essential for performance and I tend to use only 2 mags in all 3 lugers. The 1913 DWM, the VoPo and the 1937 S/42 all like the early 30's blued tube mags in combination with S&B rounds.

As the OAL of the S&B is close to original specs, it means that the later extruded mags as well as the MecGars, both setup for slightly shorter OAL don't work as reliably as the older magazines.

Stovepiping is common with the S&B and 'new' magazines in my case.

[Heinmot]

Henrik:

Interesting, because I installed the 36 lb spring on mine and it works GREAT.

What is the make of your magazines?

I found that on my original fxo mag, I had to do quite a bit of adjusting {carefully, trial and error} with pliers and wood block as it had dents in it which would allow just a little bit of a hiccup as the ammo fed thru. This was enough to cause a jam.

With it aligned now, it works great, in spite of looking a bit battered.

Also, pay close attention to the loading button. On my original, it had worked loose and rubbed unevenly along the length of the inside of the grip {yes, I had LOTS of fun getting this thing to work!!}.

The Mec-Gar mags I bought are as Van says, dimensioned differently than the original. However, my Mec-Gars will feed American Eagle 147 grain truncated cone FLAT point, and those bullets won't even fit inside the original mag properly. In the original fxo mag, they bind at the edges of the flat point. The Mec-Gars are wider at this point on the magazine. But those bullets slip right thru the M-G's, no problem!

I'll have to throw a dial caliper inside both these mags and get a max length of the mag. Van has me curious now.

Henrik, even after all these years it appears that the Tyskers are still making it tough, but keep trying, you'll win in the end!

[Sieger]

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by G. van Vlimmeren:
<strong>Hi Henrik,

S&B is actually very, very close to the original spec DWM 9mm bullets. I've shot both 115gr and 124gr S&B and difference is not great, the 124gr has a mildly better accuracy.

After shooting several lugers, I found that finding the right magazine was essential for performance and I tend to use only 2 mags in all 3 lugers. The 1913 DWM, the VoPo and the 1937 S/42 all like the early 30's blued tube mags in combination with S&B rounds.

As the OAL of the S&B is close to original specs, it means that the later extruded mags as well as the MecGars, both setup for slightly shorter OAL don't work as reliably as the older magazines.

Stovepiping is common with the S&B and 'new' magazines in my case.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Hi:

I agree here. The new Mec-Gars do seem to be set up for the shorter stuff. I'll study this further and get back with a thread.

Sieger

[HCS]

Hi

Heinmot I only have original magazines, I have 5 ones that I use to shoot, I have installed a new round Wolff spring in one of the nickled types and it was the one that performed the best but not perfect, that led me into buying a set of the round ones and a set of the squared ones, but I haven't tested them yet. I have installed two of the squared types of springs in the two fxo magazines I have and the one is working very smooth, but the other seems much more difficult to press down and it doesen't move as freely as the first, I gave up replacing the round type in the other magazines as the Wolf type seems to be sligthly wider than the original, they scraped the sides of the magazine and they could hardly be pressed to the bottom, but I guess I have to work on them and try to make them a bit wider as Heinmot did.

Henrik
Denmark

[G.T.]

Hi Henrik! I have tested them, and have come to the same conclusion as you on the aftermarket round springs! I designed a brand new magazine follower spring that addresses all the problems you have listed! By all accounts so far, it is working great! If you are interested in one, they are $5.00 each delivered to you! best to you, til....lat'r....GT