OT...Importation Question...?

Pete Ebbink · 02-03-2003, 10:16 AM

I am trying to buy a revolver (not a luger) from Europe that was made in the 1880's time frame.

I have called and talked to 7 diferent BATF offices and folks and cannot get real answers to my questions :

1. Since this revolver is made prior to 1898, is it not considered an antique ?

2. If this pistol is an antique, is it not exempt from the Form 6 Importation process that can take up to 6-12 weeks ?

3. Can't I just have this guy in Europe send me the pistol (assuming I send him all of my paperwork and payment...) ?

I am afraid I might loose the deal on this revolver if I cannot get the right scoop...

I just need some advice...have you folks done this before with an antique pistol ? Would appreciate your inputs.

I will not consider any "advice" I might receive here on the Luger Forum as "official or legal" advice...

If I talk to one more BATF person, I think my head will just explode... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> I just can't get these bureaucrats to give me a straight answer...

Thanks in advance for your help...

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

Imperial Arms · 02-03-2003, 01:53 PM

Hello Pete,

Hereunder is the information I extracted from the BATF website:

Do antique firearms come within the purview of the GCA (Gun Control Act)?

No. "Antique firearms" are defined in the following:

TITLE 18 U.S.C. CHAPTER 44 SECTION 921(a) (16)

(16) The term "antique firearm" means-

(A) any firearm (including any firearm with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system) manufactured in or before 1898; or

(B) any replica of any firearm described in subparagraph (A) if such replica- -

(i) is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition, or

(ii) uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition which is no longer manufactured in the United States and which is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade; or

(C) any muzzle loading rifle muzzle loading shotgun, or muzzle loading pistol, which is designed to use black powder, or a black powder substitute, and which cannot use fixed ammunition. For purposes of this subparagraph, the term 'antique firearm" shall not include any weapon which incorporates a firearm frame or receiver, any firearm which is converted into a muzzle loading weapon, or any muzzle loading weapon which can be readily converted to fire fixed ammunition by replacing the barrel, bolt, breech-block, or any combination thereof.

27 CFR 178.11
Antique firearm. (a) Any firearm (including any firearm with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system) manufactured in or before 1898; and (b) any replica of any firearm described in paragraph (a) of this definition if such replica (1) is not designated or redesignated for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition, or (2) uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition which is no longer manufactured in the United States and which is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade.

By reason of the fact that your revolver is made pre-1898, it should be considered an antique in the US and should not require an ATF Form 6. In addition, it is exempt from the 10% import tax (by US Customs) because it is more that 100 years old. Before making any decision to have the item shipped from Switzerland, I would advise you to check out your state laws regarding firearm ownership, and in addition, the revolver should be correctly described as 'one 1880 antique Swiss revolver'

For your information, you are the first person to speak with an ATF agent who cannot give you a clear answer! I recommend that you contact Mr. Thomas Stewart (Director of the Imports Department at the BATF) to obtain his advise on this matter

Good luck,
Albert

Ron Wood · 02-03-2003, 02:14 PM

Albert,
It is always good to hear from someone who has "been there, done that, got the t-shirt"!
Firearms import and export is not for the fainthearted, and usually is more grief than it is worth. But for an antique weapon, it should be a straightforward and relatively simple matter. Thanks for providing a point of contact at BATF who knows the rules and hopefully can provide correct answers.

Navy · 02-03-2003, 02:16 PM

Hi Pete,

Albert is 100% correct on this. As a matter of fact, the piece is mailable and requires no licensure by los federales...no C&R paperwork.

Have the vendor ensure it and send via registered mail and there should be no probs.

Tom A.

Pete Ebbink · 02-03-2003, 03:25 PM

Thanks, all for your replies, and a special thanks to you, Albert !

Mr. Stewart at the BATF can be reached at Tele. No. (202) 927-8320.

I have described the pistol in question which most likely will be ruled an antique that uses a 7.5 mm ammo. This ammo is not even sold in Switzerland anymore.

He will advise me tomorrow.

Regards and thanks, again...

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

02-03-2003, 10:16 AM	#1
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	OT...Importation Question...? I am trying to buy a revolver (not a luger) from Europe that was made in the 1880's time frame. I have called and talked to 7 diferent BATF offices and folks and cannot get real answers to my questions : 1. Since this revolver is made prior to 1898, is it not considered an antique ? 2. If this pistol is an antique, is it not exempt from the Form 6 Importation process that can take up to 6-12 weeks ? 3. Can't I just have this guy in Europe send me the pistol (assuming I send him all of my paperwork and payment...) ? I am afraid I might loose the deal on this revolver if I cannot get the right scoop... I just need some advice...have you folks done this before with an antique pistol ? Would appreciate your inputs. I will not consider any "advice" I might receive here on the Luger Forum as "official or legal" advice... If I talk to one more BATF person, I think my head will just explode... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> I just can't get these bureaucrats to give me a straight answer... Thanks in advance for your help... Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

02-03-2003, 02:14 PM	#3
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,005 Thanks: 1,087 Thanked 5,139 Times in 1,689 Posts	Albert, It is always good to hear from someone who has "been there, done that, got the t-shirt"! Firearms import and export is not for the fainthearted, and usually is more grief than it is worth. But for an antique weapon, it should be a straightforward and relatively simple matter. Thanks for providing a point of contact at BATF who knows the rules and hopefully can provide correct answers. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

02-03-2003, 01:53 PM	#2
Imperial Arms Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Malta, EU Posts: 579 Thanks: 0 Thanked 7 Times in 7 Posts	Hello Pete, Hereunder is the information I extracted from the BATF website: Do antique firearms come within the purview of the GCA (Gun Control Act)? No. "Antique firearms" are defined in the following: TITLE 18 U.S.C. CHAPTER 44 SECTION 921(a) (16) (16) The term "antique firearm" means- (A) any firearm (including any firearm with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system) manufactured in or before 1898; or (B) any replica of any firearm described in subparagraph (A) if such replica- - (i) is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition, or (ii) uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition which is no longer manufactured in the United States and which is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade; or (C) any muzzle loading rifle muzzle loading shotgun, or muzzle loading pistol, which is designed to use black powder, or a black powder substitute, and which cannot use fixed ammunition. For purposes of this subparagraph, the term 'antique firearm" shall not include any weapon which incorporates a firearm frame or receiver, any firearm which is converted into a muzzle loading weapon, or any muzzle loading weapon which can be readily converted to fire fixed ammunition by replacing the barrel, bolt, breech-block, or any combination thereof. 27 CFR 178.11 Antique firearm. (a) Any firearm (including any firearm with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system) manufactured in or before 1898; and (b) any replica of any firearm described in paragraph (a) of this definition if such replica (1) is not designated or redesignated for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition, or (2) uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition which is no longer manufactured in the United States and which is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade. By reason of the fact that your revolver is made pre-1898, it should be considered an antique in the US and should not require an ATF Form 6. In addition, it is exempt from the 10% import tax (by US Customs) because it is more that 100 years old. Before making any decision to have the item shipped from Switzerland, I would advise you to check out your state laws regarding firearm ownership, and in addition, the revolver should be correctly described as 'one 1880 antique Swiss revolver' For your information, you are the first person to speak with an ATF agent who cannot give you a clear answer! I recommend that you contact Mr. Thomas Stewart (Director of the Imports Department at the BATF) to obtain his advise on this matter Good luck, Albert

02-03-2003, 02:16 PM	#4
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	Hi Pete, Albert is 100% correct on this. As a matter of fact, the piece is mailable and requires no licensure by los federales...no C&R paperwork. Have the vendor ensure it and send via registered mail and there should be no probs. Tom A.

02-03-2003, 03:25 PM	#5
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Thanks, all for your replies, and a special thanks to you, Albert ! Mr. Stewart at the BATF can be reached at Tele. No. (202) 927-8320. I have described the pistol in question which most likely will be ruled an antique that uses a 7.5 mm ammo. This ammo is not even sold in Switzerland anymore. He will advise me tomorrow. Regards and thanks, again... Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />