Some info please. - Page 2

Edward Tinker · 05-04-2005, 11:03 PM

Well, I'd feel guilty too, but not incredibly, as she is setting the price...

The P38 sounds nice, and I used to have a nice M 19, nice gun.

Wonder what else she has?

The repro's are fun guns too!

l10 · 05-04-2005, 11:52 PM

Ed, I sent you a PM.

Edward Tinker · 05-04-2005, 11:59 PM

answered...

wish I was still living in Palouse, would come over to pop some caps!

ed

l10 · 05-05-2005, 12:19 AM

Ed, another PM.

John Sabato · 05-05-2005, 09:03 AM

l10,

Welcome to the Lugerforum... just wanted to make sure that you know about our "sister" forum.... the P38forum.com

You will find a great bunch of guys over there, many from here, but that forum isn't as sophisticated as this one

SixPackSuperBee · 05-05-2005, 12:35 PM

Trigger....since you seem to be a FN/FAL fan I'Ll tell you a bit about the rifle....at least what I know for now. The rifle is a true Belgian import supposedly purchased by the lady's husband in the early sixties from what she could remember. This particular rifle has a "G" in front of the serial number but I'm not sure what it means...perhaps you do. It also has "F.A.L. cal. 7.62" stamped on the receiver. I also have a rifle built and imported by Steyr in the early seventies. A note of interest on these two rifles is that both of them have the automatic safety sear recesses which was banned on both versions of the rifle for import to the U.S. but only after some had been already sold.....these rifles were considered exempt from the ban. I havent confirmed this but it is what I was told by a gun dealer. Also in my collection is a 1950 prototype chambered for .280 British.

SixPackSuperBee · 05-08-2005, 11:45 PM

I have had this rifle for about seven years. I purchased it for $1400.00 as an odity addition to my collection. I had no idea it is a rare piece, actually since you tell me it is rare then is probably a fake or something. I was told what it was at a gun show about two years ago because there are no markings on the rifle other than the "FN" logo on the right handside of the receiver. I purchased it from a man from Georgia who told me that in the early fifties it was a rifle tested by the U.S. government to replace the M-1 Garand. When I asked how he came about it he became vague and changed the subject. I have no way of confirming this story and it well may be a fabrication. If I can get one of my friends to help me with submitting photoswith my posts I add pictures but I have no idea how.
Now, as for my nickname. I only dabble slightly in firearms.....my true passion is classic American automobiles. I have a 1969 Dodge Super Bee which is equipped with a 440 cubic v-8 engine. This engine is aspirated by three two barrell carburetors which Dodge nicknamed the "six pack". So the car I have is a 1969 Dodge "SixPackSuperBee" and hence the name.

John Sabato · 05-09-2005, 09:44 AM

Dear Mr SixpackSuperBee - this is the .280 British calibre prototype as examined by the US government in the early 1950's. I have never seen one. Ever. And I was a frequent visitor and user of the MoD facilities in the Pattern Room, where all YOUR Sharps prototypes are permanently held, as well as about 200,000 other weapons.

After the war, and in response to the need to have a smaller more easily handled infantry rilfe with enough power ot do the job, the British came out with EM2, a radical bull-pup design. The Belgians came out with the FAL, and in an attempt to pursuade the allies to buy it, made trial units in .280 British to present to us and the US, as the latter at that time did not have an intermediate cartridge [the .30cal M1 carbine did not count as an full-blown infantry weapon]. The US, who by that time was developing the round that became called the .308Win/7.62x51NATO] were not interested. The British governent canned the wonderful bull-pup EM2, which we should still be using today, and bought the FAL which we, along with Canada and the rest of the commonwealth, built to imperial standards rather than metric. We called it the SLR L1A1 [Self loading rifle], and it served us all well from 1956 to an undisclosed time that is not as far back in the past as you imagine. I loved it. It was accurate up to 600m or so, worked no matter what you did to it, and fired a serious round that really smarted, althoguh on a good day you would not have felt a thing. Unlike the Daisy-thing we have now, I never saw anybody take a 7.62mm hit and get up and walk away.

The US trial weapons are lost to history, but your weapon is a rarity indeed. It's value cannot be estimated if both the MoD Pattern Room and FN are interested in seeing it again.

By itself it is an interesting piece of British and Belgian history, a might-have-been. It is certainly far rarer than any Borchardt could ever be.

Give me a call on pm if you want any more info.

tac

SixPackSuperBee · 05-09-2005, 12:39 PM

Well, I believe I was correct in thinking that my rifle is a fake. Although it looks very similar to the photo you sent in your reply, my rifle has a much more angled hand grip and there is no brass diamond shaped plate on the butt-stock. Also there is no flash supressor on my rifle.....just a strait barrel. But it does fire the .280 cartridge (7x43 is stamped on the back of the few cartridge casings I have). I find it impossible to believe that I would have stumbled on such a supremely rare specimen that uou describe and for only 1400 bucks. It looks like I was dupped into believing I had something that I didnt. I had no idea of the rarity of the rifle you describe. I believed the old man because he seemed so very knowledgable...and may have been....but MY GOD, you should have seen his wonderful collection of firearms. Most impressive to me was he owned EVERY Winchester rifle ever made from the companies beginnings until now. All working originals and he was very protective of them. He even treated me and let me shoot his Gattling gun (I believe he said it was .75 caliber) It was shooting bricks through the barrells, lol. Anyway, thank you for setting a little straiter on the rifle I have....but now I have no idea what it is, lol. Still, if I can provide photos of it I will at my earliest convenience.

l10 · 05-09-2005, 11:21 PM

Sixpack,
Hey these folks are trying to help you id this rifle. Send them the numbers, there is no embarassment in it not being what is hoped but.....if it does turn out be the real thing sounds like you could change that moniker to Hemicudaconvertible. Worth going the last step.

DougT · 05-11-2005, 06:49 AM

Hi Tac,

I know all the other members think you're just a peach--but excuse me, could you please speak "English?"
DougT

DougT · 05-11-2005, 07:16 AM

No Sir, Mr. tacfoley,

Here the term "think you're just a peach" is very complementary and means that people think most highly of you (as they should). I was only kidding you about "speaking English," as (obviously) you do. I speak "American", and am proud of it.

Your third paragraph confused me totally--what in the world were you saying?

I've lurked about the forum long enough to know that you're a cool guy, and if you ever get to LA (that's Los Angeles to all those on the other side of the pond) let me know and we'll down some brewski's (beer). Like they say in LA: "You da man, Tac!" (this means we sincerely feel that you are a tremendous individual and we absolutely respect and admire you).
DougT

Edward Tinker · 05-11-2005, 08:24 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by DougT
Here the term "think you're just a peach" is very complementary and means that people think most highly of you (as they should).

heh, heh, especially in Atlanta, where Georgia is the Peach capital of the world....

hey, sometimes the thick skinned guys have "thin" skins!

Ida-Alp · 05-11-2005, 09:29 AM

Hi Tac--Is what you are calling the "280 British" the same cartridge that we call "280 Ross" ??
what rifles was it used in. ?? Thanks--Al

Ida-Alp · 05-11-2005, 11:41 AM

You sure cleared that up--Thanks very much-Al

Edward Tinker · 05-11-2005, 01:31 PM

hmmmm, Tac, ever hear of "lunch-box" specials....

John Sabato · 05-11-2005, 02:01 PM

"Lunch Box Specials" are those firearms whose origin can be (or perhaps can't be) traced to parts that were surreptitiously removed from a factory in worker's lunch boxes, and assembled outside of the factory and without the factory's knowledge...

In some cases, these firearms have no markings whatsoever... one of the websites dedicated to the M1911 has photo examples of such guns... and I have seen photos of at least one Luger that had never been serial numbered or factory marked...

How they got out of the factory will always be a mystery...

SixPackSuperBee · 05-12-2005, 06:24 PM

Well, here is the step you thought I wasnt going to take Tac. I have been busy with hiring and scheduling at my work and have not had the chance to post the serial number of the rifle I have but here it is. T-48-0002 or T-48-0012. There seem to be grinding marks under the serial numbers and then these numbers stamped over the marks, the second to last number is hard to make out. I have no idea whi you seemed upset with my last post but if I offended you in any way please accept my most humble apologies.
I would include photos but I have no scanner and dont know how to anyway. I want a friend to do it for me but his father recently passed and he has been unavailable.

05-04-2005, 11:59 PM	#23
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,911 Thanks: 1,986 Thanked 4,502 Times in 2,077 Posts	answered... wish I was still living in Palouse, would come over to pop some caps! ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

05-05-2005, 09:03 AM	#25
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	l10, Welcome to the Lugerforum... just wanted to make sure that you know about our "sister" forum.... the P38forum.com You will find a great bunch of guys over there, many from here, but that forum isn't as sophisticated as this one __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

05-09-2005, 09:44 AM	#28
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	Posted for TAC by Admin... as Tac is photo-upload challenged at the moment Dear Mr SixpackSuperBee - this is the .280 British calibre prototype as examined by the US government in the early 1950's. I have never seen one. Ever. And I was a frequent visitor and user of the MoD facilities in the Pattern Room, where all YOUR Sharps prototypes are permanently held, as well as about 200,000 other weapons. After the war, and in response to the need to have a smaller more easily handled infantry rilfe with enough power ot do the job, the British came out with EM2, a radical bull-pup design. The Belgians came out with the FAL, and in an attempt to pursuade the allies to buy it, made trial units in .280 British to present to us and the US, as the latter at that time did not have an intermediate cartridge [the .30cal M1 carbine did not count as an full-blown infantry weapon]. The US, who by that time was developing the round that became called the .308Win/7.62x51NATO] were not interested. The British governent canned the wonderful bull-pup EM2, which we should still be using today, and bought the FAL which we, along with Canada and the rest of the commonwealth, built to imperial standards rather than metric. We called it the SLR L1A1 [Self loading rifle], and it served us all well from 1956 to an undisclosed time that is not as far back in the past as you imagine. I loved it. It was accurate up to 600m or so, worked no matter what you did to it, and fired a serious round that really smarted, althoguh on a good day you would not have felt a thing. Unlike the Daisy-thing we have now, I never saw anybody take a 7.62mm hit and get up and walk away. The US trial weapons are lost to history, but your weapon is a rarity indeed. It's value cannot be estimated if both the MoD Pattern Room and FN are interested in seeing it again. By itself it is an interesting piece of British and Belgian history, a might-have-been. It is certainly far rarer than any Borchardt could ever be. Give me a call on pm if you want any more info. tac __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

05-11-2005, 01:31 PM	#36
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,911 Thanks: 1,986 Thanked 4,502 Times in 2,077 Posts	hmmmm, Tac, ever hear of "lunch-box" specials.... __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

05-11-2005, 02:01 PM	#37
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	Lunch Box Specials "Lunch Box Specials" are those firearms whose origin can be (or perhaps can't be) traced to parts that were surreptitiously removed from a factory in worker's lunch boxes, and assembled outside of the factory and without the factory's knowledge... In some cases, these firearms have no markings whatsoever... one of the websites dedicated to the M1911 has photo examples of such guns... and I have seen photos of at least one Luger that had never been serial numbered or factory marked... How they got out of the factory will always be a mystery... __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

05-04-2005, 11:03 PM	#21
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,911 Thanks: 1,986 Thanked 4,502 Times in 2,077 Posts	Well, I'd feel guilty too, but not incredibly, as she is setting the price... The P38 sounds nice, and I used to have a nice M 19, nice gun. Wonder what else she has? The repro's are fun guns too!

05-04-2005, 11:52 PM	#22
l10 User Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Pacific Northwest Posts: 17 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Ed, I sent you a PM.

05-05-2005, 12:19 AM	#24
l10 User Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Pacific Northwest Posts: 17 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Ed, another PM.

05-05-2005, 12:35 PM	#26
SixPackSuperBee User Join Date: May 2005 Location: Louisiana Posts: 7 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Trigger....since you seem to be a FN/FAL fan I'Ll tell you a bit about the rifle....at least what I know for now. The rifle is a true Belgian import supposedly purchased by the lady's husband in the early sixties from what she could remember. This particular rifle has a "G" in front of the serial number but I'm not sure what it means...perhaps you do. It also has "F.A.L. cal. 7.62" stamped on the receiver. I also have a rifle built and imported by Steyr in the early seventies. A note of interest on these two rifles is that both of them have the automatic safety sear recesses which was banned on both versions of the rifle for import to the U.S. but only after some had been already sold.....these rifles were considered exempt from the ban. I havent confirmed this but it is what I was told by a gun dealer. Also in my collection is a 1950 prototype chambered for .280 British.

05-08-2005, 11:45 PM	#27
SixPackSuperBee User Join Date: May 2005 Location: Louisiana Posts: 7 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I have had this rifle for about seven years. I purchased it for $1400.00 as an odity addition to my collection. I had no idea it is a rare piece, actually since you tell me it is rare then is probably a fake or something. I was told what it was at a gun show about two years ago because there are no markings on the rifle other than the "FN" logo on the right handside of the receiver. I purchased it from a man from Georgia who told me that in the early fifties it was a rifle tested by the U.S. government to replace the M-1 Garand. When I asked how he came about it he became vague and changed the subject. I have no way of confirming this story and it well may be a fabrication. If I can get one of my friends to help me with submitting photoswith my posts I add pictures but I have no idea how. Now, as for my nickname. I only dabble slightly in firearms.....my true passion is classic American automobiles. I have a 1969 Dodge Super Bee which is equipped with a 440 cubic v-8 engine. This engine is aspirated by three two barrell carburetors which Dodge nicknamed the "six pack". So the car I have is a 1969 Dodge "SixPackSuperBee" and hence the name.

05-09-2005, 12:39 PM	#29
SixPackSuperBee User Join Date: May 2005 Location: Louisiana Posts: 7 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Well, I believe I was correct in thinking that my rifle is a fake. Although it looks very similar to the photo you sent in your reply, my rifle has a much more angled hand grip and there is no brass diamond shaped plate on the butt-stock. Also there is no flash supressor on my rifle.....just a strait barrel. But it does fire the .280 cartridge (7x43 is stamped on the back of the few cartridge casings I have). I find it impossible to believe that I would have stumbled on such a supremely rare specimen that uou describe and for only 1400 bucks. It looks like I was dupped into believing I had something that I didnt. I had no idea of the rarity of the rifle you describe. I believed the old man because he seemed so very knowledgable...and may have been....but MY GOD, you should have seen his wonderful collection of firearms. Most impressive to me was he owned EVERY Winchester rifle ever made from the companies beginnings until now. All working originals and he was very protective of them. He even treated me and let me shoot his Gattling gun (I believe he said it was .75 caliber) It was shooting bricks through the barrells, lol. Anyway, thank you for setting a little straiter on the rifle I have....but now I have no idea what it is, lol. Still, if I can provide photos of it I will at my earliest convenience.

05-09-2005, 11:21 PM	#30
l10 User Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Pacific Northwest Posts: 17 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Sixpack, Hey these folks are trying to help you id this rifle. Send them the numbers, there is no embarassment in it not being what is hoped but.....if it does turn out be the real thing sounds like you could change that moniker to Hemicudaconvertible. Worth going the last step.

05-11-2005, 06:49 AM	#31
DougT User Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: So. Cal. Posts: 171 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Hi Tac, I know all the other members think you're just a peach--but excuse me, could you please speak "English?" DougT

05-11-2005, 07:16 AM	#32
DougT User Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: So. Cal. Posts: 171 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	No Sir, Mr. tacfoley, Here the term "think you're just a peach" is very complementary and means that people think most highly of you (as they should). I was only kidding you about "speaking English," as (obviously) you do. I speak "American", and am proud of it. Your third paragraph confused me totally--what in the world were you saying? I've lurked about the forum long enough to know that you're a cool guy, and if you ever get to LA (that's Los Angeles to all those on the other side of the pond) let me know and we'll down some brewski's (beer). Like they say in LA: "You da man, Tac!" (this means we sincerely feel that you are a tremendous individual and we absolutely respect and admire you). DougT

05-11-2005, 09:29 AM	#34
Ida-Alp Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Nampa ID Posts: 116 Thanks: 81 Thanked 4 Times in 4 Posts	Hi Tac--Is what you are calling the "280 British" the same cartridge that we call "280 Ross" ?? what rifles was it used in. ?? Thanks--Al

05-11-2005, 11:41 AM	#35
Ida-Alp Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Nampa ID Posts: 116 Thanks: 81 Thanked 4 Times in 4 Posts	You sure cleared that up--Thanks very much-Al

05-12-2005, 06:24 PM	#38
SixPackSuperBee User Join Date: May 2005 Location: Louisiana Posts: 7 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Well, here is the step you thought I wasnt going to take Tac. I have been busy with hiring and scheduling at my work and have not had the chance to post the serial number of the rifle I have but here it is. T-48-0002 or T-48-0012. There seem to be grinding marks under the serial numbers and then these numbers stamped over the marks, the second to last number is hard to make out. I have no idea whi you seemed upset with my last post but if I offended you in any way please accept my most humble apologies. I would include photos but I have no scanner and dont know how to anyway. I want a friend to do it for me but his father recently passed and he has been unavailable.