KI 1933 Luger

[Ted]

One of these in Erfurt form was mentioned as recently been acquired by a fellow on another forum. Still says they were used by the first concentration camp guards. Kenyon says they were used in SA and SS Cadet Training Institutes. Any opinons on which one is right? This Luger was mentioned on the Guns and Knife Luger forum. Neat Luger! String is named "Re: Luger and Mag ID". Reference sources are Kenyon's "Lugers at Random"(page 234) and Jan Still's "Weimar Lugers" (page 247) Ted



Guns & Knife Luger Board

[Marvin]

Ted,


This controversy has been ongoing for years in NAPCA, the major Luger authorities, and there is no definitive answer yet. The letters "KI" have been defined as "KonzentrationLager" and that is where the idea that they were issued to the Camp Guards. The next thought was that "KI" was for "Kadatten Institute" or one of the SA or SS training camps.


From what I have read, the Kadatten Institute makes more sense than a concentration camp pistol. The letter "I" is the key; it looks like an "I", and not a lower case "L". If it was for a Camp Guard, why not have a upper case "L"? This question may never get a definitive answer, but it sure is fun to speculate.


Marvin

I was able to obtain one of these a few years ago (all Matching Erfurt with orig. finish) from the recent group of imports at the premium price of $475. There still are a few treasures out there.

Yes, it has been going around in NAPCA for over 25 years. Examining the marking closely, one can see the letters are "Kl." not "KI.". Mark Wieringa in discussion about Reichsheer/Heer reworks on the BCN has posited a strong case for reworking at the Kassel arsenal. "Kl." is the official Heer abbreviation for Kassel. The marking is similar to the Zn. marking found for Zeithain reworks. The concentration camp connection cannot be supported in source material: the abbreviations were variations of KL or KZ. And, there was no Kadetten Institute, a fact which seems to have escaped Kenyon. The only problem, is that the explanation lacks the pizazz of the other two. It doesn't sell as well.

[Ted]

Joe, welcome to the forum, I dont remember seeing your name

here, but I have seen it in my Automag and on other forums.

I looked at Still's Pictures again (the three side by side top of the toggle/cannon shots) and I must agree, the letter looks like a small case "l" to me with the small horizontal line at the top of the letter ONLY going to the left and not the right as would a capital "I" Might Look! Ted

I signed on to comment on the fake PPK PL grip discussion. Read the Kl. comments and added mine. I have a Simson Kl.1933 and it is "Kl.". I proposed the Kl.= Konzentrationslager idea about 25 years ago in AutoMag after a discussion at a St.Louis NAPCA convention with the late Luger collector Chuck Richards of Illiois. It was his original comment to me and then it seemed logical. But after all these years, it has lost its logic to the Kl.= Kassel rework theory. That is it, in my opinion.

[Ted]

Joe, the Kassel rework makes a lot of sense. I am saving your previous post as good information to know! Thanks! Ted

[Ted]

Joe, just wonder if Reinhard Kornmayer or Gortz have commented publically on this theory? Marvin, wonder if Dieter Marschall would ask if this has not been done yet? I would love to know their opinions as well! Bis Sp�¤ter

(Just wanted to see if the unlaut worked!) Ted

[Marvin]

Ted,


I need to look in Gortz's book to see what he has to say about this. If memory serves me correct, he shows a couple of different theories.


marvin

Regarding the Kl.= Kassel rework theory. I don't think 'achim commented on this in his book as this material was extracted from fairly recent National Archive research by Mark Wieringa. Oops. I presume you were talking about 'achim's book on the P.08 and not his collaboration with Don Bryans? The P.08 book was done a dozen or so years ago and only discussed a couple of the Kl. theories (Konzentrationslager and Kadetten Institure) which he noted had no basis in source material. Does Dieter Marschall visit this forum? I will mention it to him in the next email.

[Patrick]

Ted: the Umlaut doesn�´t work (so it�´ll have to be a vowel + e). Goertz dedicated one complete chapter in the second edition of â??Die Pistole 08â?� to â??Varia and Curiosaâ?�: the â??DanzigTest Lugerâ?�, the â??Eastern Air Force Luger (Mauser code 42/41), the â??Frankenshclossâ?�, Ku (with an Umlaut), Kl, the â??Spandauâ?�, â??Death�´s Headâ?� and a number of others are all dealt with. The main points he makes on the Kl Lugers: they are all 1933 stamped DWM or Erfurt. There never was a â??Kadetten-Institutâ?� (the were called â??Kadettenhaeuse, Kadettenanstalt etc and these were closed after WWI). It is also highly unlikely that they were concentration camp (Konzentrations Lager) issue. The unit stamp is placed above the date and not on the front grip strap. There is no plausible explanation at the present time. Patrick

[Dok]

by first typing Option-u followed by the letter the umlat is suipposed to be over. Example: Option-u then "u" gives you �¼.


Ch�«�«rs,


D�¶k

[Patrick]

�¶�¤�¼ - GOTCHA!! Now all I need to know is how to attach a pic to a message with the green camera symbol. Patrick

[Dok]

What is required, is the ability to reference a site that is "UP" all the time and to be able to put the picture you want to display on that site.


An example would be to post your picture to www.photopoint.com and the you would put the URL for the Photopoint location in your message. Then the green camera appears.


What I did with your Werle picture, was to upload it to the lugerform site then used that reference in the postiong. Very simple really, but you have to be able to give an URL in your post as the location where the picture can be found.


Maybe we need an upload feature on the lugerforum so that members can upload pictures that they have that they want to display... Hmmm it's a thought....

[Patrick]

I can see that this means experimenting. .. and getting hold of a digital camera that focuses through the lense. Patrick

[Dok]

Consider it a growth challenge!!!