"Built-Up" Pacific Arms Carbine...

Pete Ebbink · 08-10-2003, 12:15 AM

Just came back from a business trip and was able to take some photos of a very interesting "built up" carbine.

I placed the photos in a photo essay in the Member's Gallery...

I think this gun started its life as a 1920's era commercial and a gunsmith in the 1950's modified it into a "carbine". It is totally refinished and placed in a modern day presentation case.

It is 7.65 mm, caliber, has what appears to be real Pacific Arms Co. brass discs inserted into the grip panels and the shoulder stock, has a very unique "peep hole" rear sight that is mounted to the rear of the frame (and not the rear toggle link), has a long octagonal barrel, etc.

I was told the "peep hole" sight was a 1920's period-correct rifle sight that this fellow dovetailed and adapted to a new base that was tapped to the rear frame...seems like a pretty stable way of mounting such a sight to the frame...

The shoulder stock is a bit shorter than an LP-08 stock, so the gun can be held closer to the shooter's eye that lines up with the "peep hole" sight.

I thought Luger Forum members might enjoy seeing this interesting gun. It is not often that one gets to see Pacific Arms Co. discs and how someone mounted a "peep hole" sight to the rear of the frame.

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

Luke · 08-10-2003, 12:22 AM

Pete -

Very interesting set of pictures. Thanks.

Luke

Navy · 08-10-2003, 03:12 AM

Hi Pete,
A very interesting curio; while there are many purists who will scoff at such a piece, I tend to think that this is a testimonial to the excellence of the Luger design as a shooter. During the period this was built, a brand new gun would have been much cheaper. Someone really liked lugers!

A very nice piece.
Tom A.

ViggoG · 08-10-2003, 07:17 AM

Thanks Pete, <img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" />
A quite interesting concept for a long range adjustable sight.
Especially with the fold down ability to allow holstering. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" />
A toast <img border="0" alt="[cherrsagai]" title="" src="graemlins/drink.gif" /> to the Maker
Too bad that he did not work a windage adjustment in the fixed base, It looks as though it could have been accomplished with a bit more work. <img border="0" alt="[thumbsup]" title="" src="graemlins/bigok.gif" />
Naow Ain't I a Piggish Wun, Wantin ever thang ?? <img border="0" alt="[ouch]" title="" src="graemlins/c.gif" />
ViggoG
PS: Were there any comments as to what value such a sight added to the Luger on which it was placed?
Such as value with and without?

ViggoG

Pete Ebbink · 08-10-2003, 07:03 PM

Hello Viggo,

I was confident you would get a kick out of seeing this unique sight set-up...I recall a discussion awhile back about the difficulty folks were having trying to add a rear "target" type sight to the top of the rear toggle link and have it stay in place. This "carbine" took an approach I had not seen before, even on the German gunsmith's web site in our Links section...

This "carbine", I would think, would be difficult to value. Since it is not an historical factory piece, I agree with Tom. A. that it is a curio and not for "purtists"...

But some fellow back in 1950 loved lugers enough and his results show care and skill. But how to you place a value on that...?

Part of this man's legacy will last for years in this piece...

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

John F. · 08-10-2003, 08:11 PM

The rear sight appears to be a Lyman #1 cocking piece sight which was intended to fit on the rear of the bolt of rifles such as the Mannlicher-Schoenauer, Springfield, Moisin-Nagant, etc. While they weren't expensive at all at the time this carbine was built, they sell for big bucks today -- minimum of $125-150 in good shape and well over $200 depending on which rifle they are for. The peep sight would give excellent precision capability to the shooter -- much better than a square notch rear for longer range shooting. Someone was really serious about this Luger project -- man, would I love to get my grubby paws on this one!!

Thanks for posting the very interesting information and photos!!
John

mauro · 08-13-2003, 04:35 PM

Thank you Pete for these interesting pictures. This carbine is very interesting. This is the first time I see the original Pacific Arms Corporation grips. Right now I have seen them only in the Pacific Arms advertisings. It is also very unusual to see a peep hole sight mounted in this way. Actually I have seen few Borchardt pistols with a similar sight mounted but this is the first Luger.

Ciao

Pete Ebbink · 08-13-2003, 07:37 PM

Hello Mauro,

Glad you enjoyed seeing the P-A grip discs. I cannot believe the maker of this "carbine" was able to find four (4) of these rare discs...two for the pistol grips and two for each side of the stock...

The detail and condition of these discs was remarkable for their age. I have seen a "repro" disc once...but it really lacked the fine detail that I saw in these P-A discs. Maybe the repro's are/were made by creating a wax-casting of original discs...and in the process some of the fine detail is lost...

Hello John F.,

Thanks for the info. on the Lyman sights. When I held this pistol with its stock attached, the peep hole looked very large in reference to the front sight (which I think is called a gold marble bead type...), the peep hole appeared to be a very large ring with a very small front sight bead in the foreground. Sort of like looking at a nickle through a 6" diameter ring... I thought the peep hole sight could have been improved with a set of cross-hairs...maybe with fine gold wires...

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

Pete Ebbink · 01-31-2004, 06:21 PM

Had a luger friend send me a couple of jpegs of another "peep hole sighted" luger...

Seems like at least two (2) gunsmiths tried to improve the sight picture of the luger front and rear sights...this sample not as professionally done as the previous cased luger that opened this discussion thread. I also heard a rumor that the previous cased set sold for around $ 10K...remarkable for (what I think was...) a made-up carbine luger set...

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

Edward Tinker · 02-01-2004, 12:22 AM

Nice Pete! Thanks!

Ed

08-10-2003, 12:22 AM	#2
Luke User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: NC - USA Posts: 1,239 Thanks: 0 Thanked 18 Times in 6 Posts	Pete - Very interesting set of pictures. Thanks. Luke __________________ "Peace, if possible; truth, at any cost." . . . Martin Luther

08-10-2003, 08:11 PM	#6
John F. User Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 37 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	The rear sight appears to be a Lyman #1 cocking piece sight which was intended to fit on the rear of the bolt of rifles such as the Mannlicher-Schoenauer, Springfield, Moisin-Nagant, etc. While they weren't expensive at all at the time this carbine was built, they sell for big bucks today -- minimum of $125-150 in good shape and well over $200 depending on which rifle they are for. The peep sight would give excellent precision capability to the shooter -- much better than a square notch rear for longer range shooting. Someone was really serious about this Luger project -- man, would I love to get my grubby paws on this one!! Thanks for posting the very interesting information and photos!! John __________________ John

08-13-2003, 04:35 PM	#7
mauro FIREARM HISTORIAN AND AUT Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Belgium Posts: 1,535 Thanks: 106 Thanked 349 Times in 129 Posts	Thank you Pete for these interesting pictures. This carbine is very interesting. This is the first time I see the original Pacific Arms Corporation grips. Right now I have seen them only in the Pacific Arms advertisings. It is also very unusual to see a peep hole sight mounted in this way. Actually I have seen few Borchardt pistols with a similar sight mounted but this is the first Luger. Ciao __________________ Mauro Baudino - www.lugerlp08.com www.paul-mauser-archive.com Mauser Company and Firearm Historian - Mauser Parabellum Certification Service.

02-01-2004, 12:22 AM	#10
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,909 Thanks: 1,986 Thanked 4,500 Times in 2,076 Posts	Nice Pete! Thanks! Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

08-10-2003, 12:15 AM	#1
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	"Built-Up" Pacific Arms Carbine... Just came back from a business trip and was able to take some photos of a very interesting "built up" carbine. I placed the photos in a photo essay in the Member's Gallery... I think this gun started its life as a 1920's era commercial and a gunsmith in the 1950's modified it into a "carbine". It is totally refinished and placed in a modern day presentation case. It is 7.65 mm, caliber, has what appears to be real Pacific Arms Co. brass discs inserted into the grip panels and the shoulder stock, has a very unique "peep hole" rear sight that is mounted to the rear of the frame (and not the rear toggle link), has a long octagonal barrel, etc. I was told the "peep hole" sight was a 1920's period-correct rifle sight that this fellow dovetailed and adapted to a new base that was tapped to the rear frame...seems like a pretty stable way of mounting such a sight to the frame... The shoulder stock is a bit shorter than an LP-08 stock, so the gun can be held closer to the shooter's eye that lines up with the "peep hole" sight. I thought Luger Forum members might enjoy seeing this interesting gun. It is not often that one gets to see Pacific Arms Co. discs and how someone mounted a "peep hole" sight to the rear of the frame. Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

08-10-2003, 03:12 AM	#3
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	Hi Pete, A very interesting curio; while there are many purists who will scoff at such a piece, I tend to think that this is a testimonial to the excellence of the Luger design as a shooter. During the period this was built, a brand new gun would have been much cheaper. Someone really liked lugers! A very nice piece. Tom A.

08-10-2003, 07:17 AM	#4
ViggoG RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: South Side Virginia Posts: 534 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Thanks Pete, <img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" /> A quite interesting concept for a long range adjustable sight. Especially with the fold down ability to allow holstering. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> A toast <img border="0" alt="[cherrsagai]" title="" src="graemlins/drink.gif" /> to the Maker Too bad that he did not work a windage adjustment in the fixed base, It looks as though it could have been accomplished with a bit more work. <img border="0" alt="[thumbsup]" title="" src="graemlins/bigok.gif" /> Naow Ain't I a Piggish Wun, Wantin ever thang ?? <img border="0" alt="[ouch]" title="" src="graemlins/c.gif" /> ViggoG PS: Were there any comments as to what value such a sight added to the Luger on which it was placed? Such as value with and without? ViggoG

08-10-2003, 07:03 PM	#5
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Hello Viggo, I was confident you would get a kick out of seeing this unique sight set-up...I recall a discussion awhile back about the difficulty folks were having trying to add a rear "target" type sight to the top of the rear toggle link and have it stay in place. This "carbine" took an approach I had not seen before, even on the German gunsmith's web site in our Links section... This "carbine", I would think, would be difficult to value. Since it is not an historical factory piece, I agree with Tom. A. that it is a curio and not for "purtists"... But some fellow back in 1950 loved lugers enough and his results show care and skill. But how to you place a value on that...? Part of this man's legacy will last for years in this piece... Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

08-13-2003, 07:37 PM	#8
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Hello Mauro, Glad you enjoyed seeing the P-A grip discs. I cannot believe the maker of this "carbine" was able to find four (4) of these rare discs...two for the pistol grips and two for each side of the stock... The detail and condition of these discs was remarkable for their age. I have seen a "repro" disc once...but it really lacked the fine detail that I saw in these P-A discs. Maybe the repro's are/were made by creating a wax-casting of original discs...and in the process some of the fine detail is lost... Hello John F., Thanks for the info. on the Lyman sights. When I held this pistol with its stock attached, the peep hole looked very large in reference to the front sight (which I think is called a gold marble bead type...), the peep hole appeared to be a very large ring with a very small front sight bead in the foreground. Sort of like looking at a nickle through a 6" diameter ring... I thought the peep hole sight could have been improved with a set of cross-hairs...maybe with fine gold wires... Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

01-31-2004, 06:21 PM	#9
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Had a luger friend send me a couple of jpegs of another "peep hole sighted" luger... Seems like at least two (2) gunsmiths tried to improve the sight picture of the luger front and rear sights...this sample not as professionally done as the previous cased luger that opened this discussion thread. I also heard a rumor that the previous cased set sold for around $ 10K...remarkable for (what I think was...) a made-up carbine luger set... Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />