Shooting Artillery Luger at 100 yards

[spartacus38]

I shot four 5 shot groups at 100 yards today.

1917 Artillery with stock and snail drum.

I used 115 gr Winchester FMJ and bench rest.

The setting of the rear sight was set a 100 meters.

The Artillery and snail drum performed flawlessly.

Results:

Group 1: 9.50 in

Group 2: 10.37 in

Group 3: 7.25 in

Group 4: 8.88 in

Average of the 4 groups: 9 inches

I think this is about the best I can do.

Next I will try the Artillery at 200 yards.

Bob

[Steinar]

Good fun shooting with an arty


..something sad about having to settle with calculating over it's balistic's instead of shooting mysef, but here it goes


Set at 100m shooting at 100yards(91,4m), you should hit 1.65inch(42mm) higher that where you are aiming. Same as on 17.5m btw.

Not that big difference..

but set at 200m shooting at 200yards(183m), you should hit 8.86 inch(225mm) above where you are aiming. Same as on 24.5m (about 80 feet).

As a curiousity.. if the sight bounces up (like mine often does), so that it is set on 200m and the distance is 100m, the bullet will be flying 25.4inch( 646mm) above target, and hopefully bringing home a duck for dinner.

[Mauser720]

spartacus38 -

Thank you for sharing this information.

May I ask what part(s) of the pistol were actually supported when you were firing it in the bench rest mode? (I assume you let the toe of the stock touch the stock rest on the bench, or was the drum touching the bench? etc.)

Steinar - Thank you for the trajectory calculations too.

Mauser720 - Ron

[spartacus38]

The snail drum was resting on my leather jacket

which was on the fixed cement bench.

Bob

[Mauser720]

Bob -

I have not even shot my artillery yet; however, I am also interested in how it will perform at the longer ranges. I have access to a 600 yard range, and when the weather gets a lot warmer and I can enlist some help with the targets, I plan to start at the shorter ranges and see if I can gradually work up to the longer ranges, etc.

I am very interested in what you have accomplished and appreciate that you are letting the rest of us know how you did, etc.

Since I have not even tried this yet, it may seem ridiculous for me to even offer you any suggestions; however, I have some experience with long range shooting. So here are some ideas for your consideration:

1. For purposes of testing the long range accuracy of the artillery, I would not use the "snail drum" magazine. Why? Because when you have that drum installed, you are raising the center of gravity. You want to keep the gun as low down to the support; i.e., in the "bench rest" position as possible. So for starters, just take the drum out and use the regular magazine.

2. On my artillery, the stock is not hard and fast when it is attached. Instead, there is some "play" when it is attached. I know this is probably "normal" but it does detract from the potential accuracy you strive to achieve. So what I plan to do, and am suggesting to you, is that you consider wrapping tape all around the stock and lower grip area to get rid of all this play. The idea is to totally or as nealy as possible get all the loose "play" out of the area where the stock attaches to the back of the grip.

3. I plan to consider using two "rests" instead of one. You need one rest underneath the magazine. You need a second rest underneath the toe of the stock. So the overall plan is to have the weapon supported in two places instead of only one. This will reduce the tendency for there to be any slight rocking movement of the gun.

4. When you are actually in position to fire, you want to have your right shoulder somewhat on top of the heel of the stock and pressing down. This will press the toe of the stock into the rest that is underneath, and will further steady the weapon. (Of course you are going to have to experiment in advance with how much padding you will need in the two "rests" that you will be using. This will depend on your own physical size, the height of the cement bench you are using, etc. Just take lots of padding with you when you are getting started.)

5. I would use the classic "6-O'clock hold" for the sight picture when you are actually firing. There are several reasons for this: (a) In this sight picture, it is a lot easier for you to see the outline of the sights because they will be in the white area beneath the black bullseye; (b) You are not interested in hitting the center of the bulleseye - instead, you are interested in how close your bullets are coming to each other on the paper. So this is why you should use the "6-O'clock hold" when you are evaluating the accuracy potential. You are not sighting this gun in. You just want to see how close you can get the bullets to come to each other on the paper target. In other words, this is just to see how small a group you can achieve.

6. Finally, I would take an ordinary candle, and use it to blacken the front and rear sight of the pistol. When you hold the sights in the candle flame, it will deposit a black film on the sights. This thin layer of black soot will reduce the extraneous glare of reflected light, and make it easier for you to achieve a perfect sight picture. A simple tactic like this can make a huge difference in the accuracy you will achieve.

I think based on what you have reported, that you have actually done very well with your artillery. And I am real interested to hear how it works out at the 200 yard range. (Note: if you will use the suggested "6-O'clock hold" you should not need to worry about being 8.86 inches high at 200 yards as pointed out by Steinar above. I assume you will be using a 200 yard target.)

Good luck with it, and thank you for sharing.

Mauser720 - Ron

[Ron Smith]

Ron,

Your suggestions are great for the purposes of ideal situation accuracy. And to remove every possibility of error, but I am interested in combat accuracy. In otherwords, what could be achieved by a soldier in the field with equipment at hand and as issued.

It would be interesting to compare both methods to see how much difference that there would be between ideal, and situational conditions.


Ron

[lugerholsterrepair]

Mauser720, I am impressed with the ideas and methods you have concerning the accuracy potential of an Artillery. Being a casual shooter like Ron, below, I am mostly interested in the combat potential of the weapon.I am just not detailed enough to go to all that trouble I guess!

One of your ideas made me wince though...Taping the stock to the butt of the pistol ala the Red Green show. Tape can damage the surface of antique wood. Tape, as good as some of it is today could peel off patina and actually remove raised splinters . I wouldn't do it to my pistol and stock.
I would just tack weld it...Jerry Burney

[Mauser720]

Jerry and Ron -

Jerry -

You are absolutely 100% right about the danger of using tape like that! And I was very wrong not to mention that possibility. Thank you very much for the precautionary comment!

Another thing I should have mentioned is wind. On a very windy day, at these longer ranges, the bullet can simply be blown off the target. For example, with a strong cross wind, it is possible to totally miss a man at a distance of 400 yards with an M-16 rifle. So another thing I should have mentioned is to try to pick a fairly calm day these longer range accuracy experiments.

Yes, Ron, you are 100% right too. There is a big difference in what is considered "expert" shooting by military standards, and what is considered "expert" shooting in competitive shooting matches. Many times a military person who has earned their expert marksmanship ribbon will actually only be an average "plinker" in a sanctioned competitive marksmanship match. But in a military situation, any time you can consistently put a bullet in someone at a reasonable range, it really doesn't matter that much where you put the bullet, as long as it is somewhere in the "center of the mass."

Yes, it would be fun just to see the difference between these two shooting situations (military reality vs. carefully controlled conditions). I know there is a big difference.

Thanks guys.

Mauser720 - Ron

[spartacus38]

I will be reporting the results of shooting a Artillery

Luger at 200 yards soon.

I shot a total of nine 5 shot groups.

Bob

[Zamo]

I am surprised that nobody has mentioned the simple fact that "as is" your shooting and accuracy at 100 yards is to be commended. A 9" group at 100 yards with a pistol is excellent "combat" accuracy. I don't know too many "enemy combatants" with a torso cross section of less than 9" across. That's almost pure headshot level accuracy!
I imagine it will open up quite a bit when you step out to 200 yards, but I really wonder about the ballistic efficiency of the 9mm cartridge at 200 yards any way, even from a carbine or rifle. Does anyone have any ballistic foot/pound energy data like that handy at those ranges?
I don't think I'd like to volunteer to take a round at 200 yards as a test subject though. I imagine it would still be very capable of wounding or killing with luck, I just figure it would have slowed and dropped quite a bit.

[Vlim]

Hi,

Don't worry about the ballistic efficiency of the old world 9mm round.
It's not a problem, lethal up until some 1200+ meters.

1966 VoPo manual (short barrel P08): Maximum range: 1500 meters.
1917 LP08 manual: At 800 meters a horse skull as well as a French helmet will be penetrated completely.

[spartacus38]

Someone just wrote in about shooting an artillery at short range.

I shot groups at 100 yards.

The results are at the beginning of this thread dated 12/13/2007.

Bob

[lugerholsterrepair]

Bob, You have posted no results?

Jerry Burney

[spartacus38]

Hi Jerry,

The results are at the beginning of the thread.

Bob

[lugerholsterrepair]

Bob, Impressive!

Jerry Burney

[Vlim]

Nice results.

Our range is limited to 50 meters (55 yards) and the shots can easily be placed in the black of a standard training target (15cm across).

What I found was that the short (10cm) P08 in combination with the TM worked quite well. The loaded drum counterbalances the pistol nicely.

My eyesight (or rather: lack of it) does not produce that accurate results, but I gave my P08 in the hands of a better seeing fellow shooter, who punched the bullseye out of the target at 15 yards.

I prefer to shoot the LP08 with holster (repro for shooting) attached. It serves a a good padding.

[DavidJayUden]

One other tip. If you have the holster on the stock, throw another Luger, any barrel length, into the holster while shooting the artillery. It really takes the bite out of the recoil (which can be surprisingly sharp). Of course I am assuming that you are using a repop. rig, as it would be foolish to use 90 yr. old leather at the range at today's values.
A very interesting thread that I shall follow closely and possibly try to replicate one of these nice days.
And I have considered trying mine on a close deer shot, although maybe not actually legal.
DJU

[spartacus38]

You may also want to see the results I posted on 1/1/2008 after

shooting an artillery at 200 yards under the section: Shooting and

Reloading.

Bob

[spartacus38]

It has been almost 4 years since I reported on shooting an Artillery Luger at the beginning of this thread.
Any new results to report?
Bob

[Sieger]

Originally Posted by spartacus38

It has been almost 4 years since I reported on shooting an Artillery Luger at the beginning of this thread.
Any new results to report?
Bob

Hi:

I'd be interested in seeing how your pistol shoots at 25 yards before I'd expect it to really group at 100 or 200 yards.

I have a handloading formula for my LP-08 (1916 DWM) that will group with six to eight touching at 25 yards. I haven't tried it at longer distances yet, so I don't really know how well it would do "a way out there".

The 115 gr. Winchester you quote above, is it the White Box stuff? According to Winchester's site, this is loaded to 1,190 fps. and, for me, does nothing but blow all over a target at 25 yards, if I can even manage to keep it on the paper. Its speed seems to be way too fast for the rifling twist of a Luger to adequately stabilize.



Sieger