Unusual 10" artillery luger

Ray · 02-05-2007, 10:47 PM

I recently purchased this artillery. It appears to be a 1923 commerical luger in the 82,000 serial range. I tried to photograph it in natural light (not a lot of that up here in Oregon this time of the year) to best examine the finish. What can you tell me about it. The front sight blade looks odd and the bbl lacks a serial number, just a crown N proof. I'm guessing that this piece started off as a regular 8" artillery that had the bbl changed at
some time perhaps in the 20s. I was estimating the finish at about 60%.

Edward Tinker · 02-05-2007, 10:53 PM

Ray, I would guess one of the Pacific Arms type of lugers that came over in the 1930's, etc.

Very cool, I like it

Ed

Dwight Gruber · 02-06-2007, 12:06 AM

Ray,

This is a very interesting Luger. The serial number places the original gun as made in 1920.

The fact that the barrel is stamped with the c/N proof mark suggests very strongly that this combination was assembled in Germany. That the barrel is not numbered suggests that this is a rebarrel, most likely intended for export to the US as shown by the GERMANY stamped on the frame. The GERMANY on the barrel suggests that it was originally intended to be sent to the US on its own, but assembled into this gun instead.

This gun most likely did not start out as a regular artillery, although it is interesting that the chamber is cut for the artillery sight--definitely a modification by someone who knew what they were doing. Also, there is no sight on the rear toggle.

Is this gun in .30 or 9mm?

One wonders if this might have been a special oder by a US customer?

--Dwight

Conny · 02-06-2007, 12:34 AM

Dwight,
When you say, "This gun most likely did not start out as a regular artillery", are you indicating that this started as a 10" artillery or a "standard" type luger?

Edward Tinker · 02-06-2007, 12:50 AM

not Dwight, but it is hard to say. You coudl special order barrels put onto "1923" commericials or onto WW1 era lugers. It appeared to be very common. My guess is that most folks wanted the "standard" 4 inch or 8 inch luger, as that is what many of the troops brought back from WW2.

Ed

policeluger · 02-06-2007, 02:38 AM

wasn't the 1920 era Lugers available in a variety of barrel sizes ? seem to me there was posted here a while back a copy of a book/news paper ad stating so.....very interesting gun

Dwight Gruber · 02-06-2007, 11:25 AM

Duane,

I'm suggesting that this gun probably started out as a standard 3 3/4" barrel Luger.

Ed, and Howard,

My understanding--and I will be glad for information which educates me otherwise--is that the US dealer ads generally represent modifications done by the dealers themselves in the US, from parts which were manufactured and exported from Germany--hence the GERMANY stamps on otherwise unmarked and unnumbered long barrels mounted into standard Lugers here.

Ray's gun is unusual by the presence of the c/N German commercial proof on the barrel, indicating that the gun was completed and proofed in Germany.

--Dwight

Ray · 02-06-2007, 11:45 AM

Dwight, there was a c/N proofed artillery on Simpson's list
that was sold recently that did not have a serial number on
it. I always just thought that the c/N proof meant that the
gun had been tested. There were so many strange things
that happened to guns in the 20s. Thanks for your comments.

Dwight Gruber · 02-06-2007, 12:09 PM

Ray,

Still the question--what is the caliber?

--Dwight

Big Norm · 02-06-2007, 01:46 PM

Ray,
nice pictures. I don't know didily squat about the post WW1 artilleries, but the rear sight looks very much like the 1918 LP-08 sight. The front sight is a different matter. It differs from the front sight on my 1918. The Locking Bolt looks a bit rough and may (?) have been touched up. But, who am I? I am in the Ron Woods club of admirers on Lugers made after 1918. I quess that all I wanted to do is compliment you on your pictures of this interesting Luger. Nice display!
Big Norm

Ray · 02-06-2007, 01:52 PM

Dwight, the caliber of the artillery is 9mm. Were .30 commerical
artillerys more common in the 20s?

mauro · 02-06-2007, 02:43 PM

For example it is possible to find some Stoeger Arty in .30 luger caliber with the tangent sight ranging from 1 up to 10.
I like this gun.
Well done.
Cheers,
Mauro

Dwight Gruber · 02-06-2007, 02:46 PM

Ray,

Commercial artilleries are not common.

In the earlier part of the century .30 was very popular and plentiful. The early Luger models were chambered for it--it was an "in-house" round--and these were the very prevalent "big gun" auto-loaders of the era. In the years between the two World Wars German arms manufacturers were prohibited from manufacturing handguns in "military" calibers (i.e. 9mm), so almost all of the Lugers of those years were made in cal. .30 Luger. Many of the commercial artillery and long-barrel Lugers proudced for export in the '20s are found in .30.

I don't know the proportions, but I'd field a WAG that your 9mm gun is probably less common.

--Dwight

02-05-2007, 10:47 PM	#1
Ray Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Oregon Posts: 127 Thanks: 2 Thanked 37 Times in 16 Posts	Unusual 10" artillery luger I recently purchased this artillery. It appears to be a 1923 commerical luger in the 82,000 serial range. I tried to photograph it in natural light (not a lot of that up here in Oregon this time of the year) to best examine the finish. What can you tell me about it. The front sight blade looks odd and the bbl lacks a serial number, just a crown N proof. I'm guessing that this piece started off as a regular 8" artillery that had the bbl changed at some time perhaps in the 20s. I was estimating the finish at about 60%.

02-05-2007, 10:53 PM	#2
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,916 Thanks: 1,995 Thanked 4,507 Times in 2,081 Posts	Ray, I would guess one of the Pacific Arms type of lugers that came over in the 1930's, etc. Very cool, I like it Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

02-06-2007, 12:34 AM	#4
Conny User Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Culpeper, Va. Posts: 279 Thanks: 0 Thanked 26 Times in 13 Posts	Dwight, When you say, "This gun most likely did not start out as a regular artillery", are you indicating that this started as a 10" artillery or a "standard" type luger? __________________ Rangers Lead the Way, Duane Leiker

02-06-2007, 12:50 AM	#5
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,916 Thanks: 1,995 Thanked 4,507 Times in 2,081 Posts	not Dwight, but it is hard to say. You coudl special order barrels put onto "1923" commericials or onto WW1 era lugers. It appeared to be very common. My guess is that most folks wanted the "standard" 4 inch or 8 inch luger, as that is what many of the troops brought back from WW2. Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

02-06-2007, 11:45 AM	#8
Ray Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Oregon Posts: 127 Thanks: 2 Thanked 37 Times in 16 Posts	crown N proof Dwight, there was a c/N proofed artillery on Simpson's list that was sold recently that did not have a serial number on it. I always just thought that the c/N proof meant that the gun had been tested. There were so many strange things that happened to guns in the 20s. Thanks for your comments.

02-06-2007, 12:06 AM	#3
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,890 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,282 Times in 424 Posts	Ray, This is a very interesting Luger. The serial number places the original gun as made in 1920. The fact that the barrel is stamped with the c/N proof mark suggests very strongly that this combination was assembled in Germany. That the barrel is not numbered suggests that this is a rebarrel, most likely intended for export to the US as shown by the GERMANY stamped on the frame. The GERMANY on the barrel suggests that it was originally intended to be sent to the US on its own, but assembled into this gun instead. This gun most likely did not start out as a regular artillery, although it is interesting that the chamber is cut for the artillery sight--definitely a modification by someone who knew what they were doing. Also, there is no sight on the rear toggle. Is this gun in .30 or 9mm? One wonders if this might have been a special oder by a US customer? --Dwight

02-06-2007, 02:38 AM	#6
policeluger RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Ca. Posts: 2,141 Thanks: 8 Thanked 89 Times in 54 Posts	wasn't the 1920 era Lugers available in a variety of barrel sizes ? seem to me there was posted here a while back a copy of a book/news paper ad stating so.....very interesting gun

02-06-2007, 11:25 AM	#7
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,890 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,282 Times in 424 Posts	Duane, I'm suggesting that this gun probably started out as a standard 3 3/4" barrel Luger. Ed, and Howard, My understanding--and I will be glad for information which educates me otherwise--is that the US dealer ads generally represent modifications done by the dealers themselves in the US, from parts which were manufactured and exported from Germany--hence the GERMANY stamps on otherwise unmarked and unnumbered long barrels mounted into standard Lugers here. Ray's gun is unusual by the presence of the c/N German commercial proof on the barrel, indicating that the gun was completed and proofed in Germany. --Dwight

02-06-2007, 12:09 PM	#9
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,890 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,282 Times in 424 Posts	Ray, Still the question--what is the caliber? --Dwight

02-06-2007, 01:46 PM	#10
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	Ray, nice pictures. I don't know didily squat about the post WW1 artilleries, but the rear sight looks very much like the 1918 LP-08 sight. The front sight is a different matter. It differs from the front sight on my 1918. The Locking Bolt looks a bit rough and may (?) have been touched up. But, who am I? I am in the Ron Woods club of admirers on Lugers made after 1918. I quess that all I wanted to do is compliment you on your pictures of this interesting Luger. Nice display! Big Norm

02-06-2007, 01:52 PM	#11
Ray Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Oregon Posts: 127 Thanks: 2 Thanked 37 Times in 16 Posts	Dwight, the caliber of the artillery is 9mm. Were .30 commerical artillerys more common in the 20s?

02-06-2007, 02:43 PM	#12
mauro FIREARM HISTORIAN AND AUT Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Belgium Posts: 1,535 Thanks: 106 Thanked 349 Times in 129 Posts	For example it is possible to find some Stoeger Arty in .30 luger caliber with the tangent sight ranging from 1 up to 10. I like this gun. Well done. Cheers, Mauro __________________ Mauro Baudino - www.lugerlp08.com www.paul-mauser-archive.com Mauser Company and Firearm Historian - Mauser Parabellum Certification Service.

02-06-2007, 02:46 PM	#13
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,890 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,282 Times in 424 Posts	Ray, Commercial artilleries are not common. In the earlier part of the century .30 was very popular and plentiful. The early Luger models were chambered for it--it was an "in-house" round--and these were the very prevalent "big gun" auto-loaders of the era. In the years between the two World Wars German arms manufacturers were prohibited from manufacturing handguns in "military" calibers (i.e. 9mm), so almost all of the Lugers of those years were made in cal. .30 Luger. Many of the commercial artillery and long-barrel Lugers proudced for export in the '20s are found in .30. I don't know the proportions, but I'd field a WAG that your 9mm gun is probably less common. --Dwight