wartime modified P.04 holster?

[spripple33]

I just won my first Luger holster, a beautiful 1st var. Navy holster, on GB for a very reasonable price and want to share my thoughts/ask for everyone's opinion on it.
The horizontal piece on the rear wall of the holster that the shoulder straps go through has been removed and two large vertical slits cut completely through. The slits themselves are sloppy but the edges of the cuts are very clean. One slit runs completely off the edge but only cuts through the rear wall. There are small indentations in the leather on the outer edge of each slit near the top. The pull-up strap is missing and seems to have fallen victim to these modifications.
This damage may have scared off collectors looking for a "nicer" Navy Luger holster but I believe it could be a wartime modification done by the U.S. soldier who captured the holster (and probably the P.04 it contained) as a trophy. To me, this makes it more interesting than a pristine example that may not have even seen action...
The indentations at the top of the slits look as if they could have been made by one of the metal clips used to attach items to a WWI U.S. issue web belt. The slits are sloppy as if somewhat hurriedly cut. If this was done post-WWI, I would think the owner would try to be a little neater with the cuts, or maybe add a belt loop instead. Just a theory from a rookie.
I welcome all thoughts and opinions even if they contradict this theory. Regardless, I feel this holster has an interesting story to tell. Thanks!
-Jason
p.s. I couldn't resist adding a pic of it with my 1906 1st issue...

[spangy]

Here is my theory spripple33 ... you have a beautiful rig that any member here would be proud of,

Nice one my friend

As for adding belt loops that would require an industrial strength sewing machine (not usually available in the field)
OR a strong sewing awl with a strong arm behind it to push it through this hide
OR a very sharp boot knife to quickly cut 2 slits for a belt loop system. lol

nice story with a nice rig to match.

[rpbcps]

Indeed a beautiful rig, I am envious, that would like nice in my collection.

My P04, which was part of the German Navy's 2nd order delivered in 1909, would look nice in that holster, but it has to be satisfied with its reproduction example for the moment.

Stay safe
Richard

[Norme]

Hi Jason,
Despite the clumsy field modification it's a rare and beautiful holster, I'm glad that you are planning to leave it as is.
Regards, Norm

[spripple33]

Thank you all for the compliments. I am most likely not going to mess with any of the above-mentioned issues. One I am considering having fixed is the cover flap for the cleaning rod pouch. It's missing it's protective ears and, more importantly, the stitching holding it to the main body of the holster is coming loose.
I would possibly like to have the stitching in this area redone. The stitching on the rest of the holster still seems to be in good shape. I am kind of on the fence regarding the little protective ears. I could have these replaced and maybe the pull-up strap as well, but I don't think I want to go that far with it...
Kind of a conservation vs. restoration debate. I think I am leaning more towards conservation but welcome opinions on this also.
-Jason

[Norme]

Hi Jason,
I would definitely send the holster to our resident Leder Meister, Jerry Burney, and have him redo the loose stitching to prevent further deterioration. I'm in two minds about replacing the missing sheath ears and pull up strap, probably not in this particular case.
Norm

[lugerholsterrepair]

Jason, A very fine German Imperial Navy holster to be sure! My opinion is no better or worse than others but might be different.

Yes, Your holster has some short history of a GI butchering it. Why anyone would preserve this momentary lapse in judgement shouldn't sway what the holster was made for. It was MADE to attach to a stock that completes a rig that was made to attach to the stock lug of your fine pistol completing the ensemble as the Kaiser and the Imperial German Navy envisioned it. The slits in the back are not wanted or intended and detract greatly from the form & function of this set.



What harm could possibly come from leaving the slits for posterity & fond remembrance and replacing the missing stock block so that you could attach it to an Imperial Navy stock?


The missing/broken thread and ears on the top of the cleaning rod sleeve are the same. Incomplete. Broken, looks bad, need restoration.

If some vandal were to slash the Mona Lisa, do you suppose it would be left that way? No..a conservationist would do what was possible to restore it to it's original form.



The case scenario would be different if this were a legitimate German modification as is sometime seen..to a type 2 Imperial holster modified with German belt loops for the Marines in land warfare. But..it is not.


As your holster is in it's present form it is virtually useless except to lay on a table, face up, hiding the mutilation. Never to be attached to a stock, never to attach to your pistol as a perfectly legal short rifle. Never to fulfill it's destiny as intended. Always to be separated, slashed, mutilated & broken. But the memory of Bubba the GI or God knows who as the perpatrator who ruined this piece of history will be front & center! Is kind of a bass ackward way of thinking IMHO.

But there it is..My opinion as a fellow collector.

[gunnertwo]

If mine, I would sent it to Jerry for restoration. I don't see how making it better (my opinion) would make it less than what it already is.

G2

[MikeP]

Just a thought on Jerry's comment regarding a bubba soldier ruining a piece of history.
I recall a discussion with a family friend who was a tanker in Europe during WW2. Gave me my 1st German helmet, in fact.
He mentioned a Navy dagger he had picked up and carried around. Said he had used it to open cans and other general stuff until he broke off the blade..
Like the dumb kid I was, I mentioned that he had ruined a valuable piece of German memorabilia.
"That's what we were there for." was his reply.
I never made the mistake of judging something like that again.

[lugerholsterrepair]

I make no judgements. These slits could have been made 10, 20, 30, years ago by someone who bought the holster when they were cheap and dispensable. If it was done by the GI who captured it, he is long dead and gone. Whoever did it had no sense of what he was doing or did. It was slit but pretty obviously was not used after mutilation. I have seen many holsters with these same slits that WERE used and they show VERY heavy belt damage, not just unused slits. It is actually quite difficult to thread any kind of leather belt threw slits like these much less A GI web belt which might be near impossible.

Regardless, I hear what your saying Mike..I mean no offense.

On another note, I did not write this analysis to drum up any business. I have more than I can handle as is. I NEVER look for work. It looks for me. Anyone is free to find the best German leather holster restorer you can.

[wlyon]

The best just commented above. Hi Jerry Bill

[spangy]

Why so many people try to convert artillery holsters to belt holsters is beyond me.
The LP08 Artillery Luger was never intended to hang on soldier's belt for obvious reasons.

Altered ... lowered collector value


Original ... premium collector value


I would restore the pull-up strap and re-attach the cover flap for the cleaning rod pouch.
But thats me. I wouldn't let a 1970 Hemi Cuda rust either.

[Norme]

These wartime conversions can be collectible in their own right, with emphasis on "wartime". The 1st photo shows an original Type 1 Navy holster designed to be attached to a stock and shoulder strap, then a Type 1 converted for belt carry, called a "Type 1 Converted" by collectors, then finally a Type 2, designed to be worn on the belt when Naval Marines were deployed for ground combat in Flanders. The two pouches shown are a Type 1 worn on a shoulder strap and a Type 2 for belt carry.
The second photo shows a "Type 1 Converted", recently re-converted back to a Type 1, a definite minus in my opinion. Jerry Burney kindly offered to re-re-convert it back to a "Type 1 Converted" but I couldn't get my mind around the concept.
Norm

[spangy]

Thank you Norme

I can see how some conversions would be collectable.
I like how the 2nd Navy conversion above did not destroy the original configuration for the shoulder stock but added the belt option so the wearer could use either configuration.

The problem I had with my Artillery example above was that the converter chose Brass fixtures to make his conversion and the LP08 now has scratches on it due to this conversion ... and then had the nerve to ask $4800 for the gun and holster without anything else. (1916 DWM Artillery)

Needless to say I turned him down.

I got to say though Norme a Type 1 re-re-Converted is very rare ... you might want to re-consider. lol

[Edward Tinker]

You guys are talking like 21st century collectors.
---------
If, 70 yrs ago (or even 100 yrs ago in WW1) imagine I am in the theatre of operations and came upon a holster, they are in a rush and they cut off the belt (the less you have to touch a body, the better), then you realize that the holster rides different on your belt or its too tight in the US GI belt. And they cut some slits in it.

We don't like it, but its the facts and either deal with it or leave it as is

[spripple33]

Gentlemen-
Thank you all so much for your thoughts. It's not a decision to be made lightly with a piece such as this.
Mr. Burney, your skills are legendary and your opinion on this particular subject carries quite a bit of weight. The collector in me agrees with you completely. There is no way to be sure when the damage was done and the holster certainly wasn't used much afterwards.
With four generations of veterans in my family, my heart agrees with MikeP. Our boys saved the world twice in less than 30 years and they did what was necessary to get the job done. My grandfather gave his life fighting the Japanese in the Pacific in WWII. The Luger that his brother, my great-uncle, brought back from Europe is what sparked my interest in the world wars in general and Lugers in particular.
That beat-up old P.08 was THE COOLEST pistol my 10-year-old eyes had ever seen...

[Patrick Sweeney]

I'd be all-in on a restoration, since it would not remove the later modifications. However, since one of the slits goes right through the stitching location of the original anchor point, I'm not sure I'd be cool with stitching the restoration down in a new location. If you follow.

[lugerholsterrepair]

Patrick, Yes, a valid concern. Jumping to the right an eighth of an inch to establish a solid anchor for the right side of the stock block is the way to do it. This would capture & hold the split/cut. Stock blocks have some leeway, especially on the ends where it's flat. It's the center section that's critical, that and width. Here is where it has to fit the cut out in the stock. Certainly a consideration but nothing serious that would stop putting on a stock block IMHO.