Police Luger Unit Mark

[alanint]

I was just shown a nice police Luger with the following Unit Mark;
L.Ar.185.

This appears to be a Wiemar era commercial Luger. The only marks on the gun are the following;
Proof: Eagle, Wa, Eagle. Eagle Proof on Barrel
Serial number is 3313 u on frame and barrel. "13" on last toggle back. Toggle axle marked "13". No nitro proof, no manufacturer on toggle, no chamber marks. Matching wood bottom Mag 3313 (no u) and number 1

Sear safety present, magazine safety removed. Wood grips look correct, period but no marks inside
Finish is original, (nice halos on barrel and unit marks) with only typical holster wear and some additional wear on the sideplate. Straw is strong on ejector, takedown and trigger, less so on safety but all appear original.

Initially I need an answer to the unit mark. This gun will be for sale but I am looking for an honest valuation as soon as I get photos up.
Thanks, gents!

[alanint]

More Pics...

[alanint]

And last, a curious Colt style blued and numbered axle pin.

[Don M]

Landjägerei Arnsberg.

[alanint]

Thanks, Don!
Rare? Desirable?

Does the gun look all correct in your opinion?

This belongs to a friend who may be selling.

[Don M]

Originally Posted by alanint

Thanks, Don!
Rare? Desirable?

Does the gun look all correct in your opinion?

This belongs to a friend who may be selling.

It looks good to me, especially with the matching mag. While I wouldn't call it rare, it is desirable (to me, at least --- I own one). See pp. 198-8 of HWIS for other examples.

[SteveM]

I like the 29 DWM's, I have one that is 1100 later than yours without gripstrap markings. It is both commercial and military marked.

SteveM

[BogeyB]

Doug,

I have one 110 earlier than yours. Alas, no matching mag. Nice gun!

Mike

[cirelaw]

I wanted to submit mine for comparision..

[Ron Smith]

Called a "Sneak" in marketing / collector parlance. A 1929 BKIW ( transition from DWM to Mauser) found in s, t, and u serial suffix with WaA66 proof. They are found with both, blank toggles, and DWM toggles.


The term "Sneak" was coined as a marketing ploy to add mystique. Supposedly produced without a date to keep the Allied Commission from knowing that Luger production had started again.
The current general consensus is that they were simply assembled from parts in inventory, and no date was thought necessary.


While not rare or scarce, but not extremely common, and desirable to unit mark collectors. I've seen them priced from $1400 to $2000+ based on condition, and scarcity of the Landjägerei unit mark district.

Ron

[cirelaw]

Thank You Ron. That make sence!

[alanint]

Thank you, Ron. It will be sold and I needed a fair market value for the owner.

Where would you put this example within that range? I have no dog in the fight, just trying to help an old vet.

[cirelaw]

Your matching mag it proved this was probobly own by a Police Officer.The one I have was not as lucky. Instead you can make out an owner very light name. What history. Their values can only increase. Donald Maus and His sources has done so much to increase the collectablity of each piece yet often bypassed. Once 'Lugers At Random appeared a whole market appeared. Collectors feel more confortable with a Policeman then a nazi brand. Keep it. Add a police holster and your golden. Eric, Esq

[Ron Smith]

Doug,

I sold one in very similar condition, without matching mag 2 or 3 years ago for $1795.00.

Ron

[alanint]

Thank you, Ron!!

[Ron Smith]

You're welcome Doug...

[Dwight Gruber]

Current collector designation is 29DWM. New commercial production made in 1929. In 1928 DWM accepted a contract to deliver a substantial number of pistols to the Riff tribe in Morocco. The Versailles treaty forbad the ecport of military wepons, so DWM assembled pistols destined for the Riff without a center toggle logo to disguise their origin.

The contract was neer delivered, and most of this production was obtained by the German police. They are found variously with commercial c/N proofs, commercial proofs with WaA66 Wafenamt acceptance stamps, and wth full Waffenamt acceptance and proof stamps but no c/N as with this example. This pistol was rebarrelled to 9mm between 1935-1938.

--Dwight

[cirelaw]

Were they on all police guns?

[Jan C Still]

Dwight
What is the basis of your statement:
"This pistol was rebarrelled to 9mm between 1935-1938."

I must of missed the documentation that the 29 DWM was first manufactured (1929/early 1930) in .30 cal. and this barrel later changed out for a 9mm barrel. If this is correct some portion of the German police must have armed with .30 caliber Lugers for a few years.
Jan

[Dwight Gruber]

Originally Posted by Jan C Still

Dwight
What is the basis of your statement:
"This pistol was rebarrelled to 9mm between 1935-1938."

I must of missed the documentation that the 29 DWM was first manufactured (1929/early 1930) in .30 cal. and this barrel later changed out for a 9mm barrel. If this is correct some portion of the German police must have armed with .30 caliber Lugers for a few years.
Jan

Jan,

I mis-spoke the dates, did it from memory, shouold have been 1936-1939. That is the time period of use for the Waffenamt power proofs on the receiver and barrel.

DWM was forbidden by the IMKK, under the terms of tlhe Versailles treaty, to manufacture weapons of military caliber (9mm) and military barrel length (100mm). This left the loophole of producing commercial pistols, so all of DWM's Luger production after 1921 had 95mm long, cal. 7.65mm barrels.

After acquiring new DWM produced pistols the police had them rebarrelled to 9mm. Where the barrels came from and where the work was done is unclear. During the period in which Simson had the exclusive P08 contract, they deliverd thousands of 9mm replacement barrels, many opf which have Waffenamt e/6 or e/33 inspection marks (the source of the "Simson rework" mis-identification). Occasionally replacement barrels are seen with Erfurt inspection marks or the Mauser S/42 replacement part code.

Some were rebarrelled close enough in time and place to have commercial proofs, some have various Weimar-period eagle military proofs, some were replaced at the Berlin police armory. The proof stamp used, along with any manufacturer's inspection mark, gives a general indication of where and when the work was done.

There were certainly .30 Parabellums in use by the police at one time or another. Karl Fischer's police equipment manuals pre-1944 (at least) include both the 9mm P08 and 7.65mm Parabellum. Lugers with Bremen police unit marks are found with 7.65 stamped on their receivers, cancelled when the pistols were rebarrelled to 9mm. Pistols of the Reichsbahnpolizei (rail police) are found in .30 cal. One of the police battalions sent to the occupied territories (can't tell you which one right now, don't have the reference at hand) was issued a number of "P08 in.30 cal."

But it does appear that the police went to a great deal of trouble to have their Lugers in 9mm, and the dearth of examples in 7.65mm indicates they were very successful in doing so.

--Dwight