Hermann Goering's Luger???

Johnny C. Kitchens · 06-07-2004, 01:28 PM

I was contacted today, by E-Mail by a person seeking information on what he believes, and could be Hermann Goering's Luger. Here is his message to me.

Yesterday I went into the net trying to get some information about a Luger Pistol and I founded a site
that has many pictures of Lugers from different Collectors, and thatÃ?Â´s how I got your e-mail address.

I have a friend that has a Luger that belonged to Hermann Goering, and he got the pistol from another person
that sold it to him some years ago back when he had some money problems and needed to get rid of it.
The thing is that person never gave my friend the register papers or some document that can proove
this Luger belonged to Herman Goering and now heÃ?Â´s trying to sell it, but he needs some information
about the gun.
He has some serial numbers, but we donÃ?Â´t have any idea how to get information about the gun,
so thatÃ?Â´s why I went to Internet expecting to find an expert that can help us telling us how to
track the pistolÃ?Â´s history so he can sell it.

Here are some pictures of the gun and I hope you can help us out on this ...

Any information will help ...

Thanks for your time, and hope to hear from you soon ..

Regards,

Claudio Ortega

"Claudio Ortega Azcanio" <cortega@hondaplaza.com.mx>

Here are the picture included with the E-Mail...

What do you think??? Real??? Or a lot of work by someone???

Vlim · 06-07-2004, 02:02 PM

I'd think Hermann could afford to buy a new gun, rather than a rebarreled navy

Without a paper trail to back it up, I'm afraid this pistol has nothing more than a curiosity value.

Ron Wood · 06-07-2004, 02:11 PM

Hermy didn't have to buy any fancy Lugers. Krieghoff gave him two.

John Sabato · 06-07-2004, 02:13 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> What do you think??? Real??? Or a lot of work by someone??? <hr /></blockquote>Johnny, I hope this doesn't ruffle any feathers, but I laughed so hard when I saw this that I nearly fell off my office chair. It was a great break from the somber feeling I have had since I got the news that former President Ronald Reagan has passed away...

IMNSHO, this overworked DWM Luger is merely somebody's handiwork to try and make a dime.

Even IF the late Herr Goering had owned several Lugers, I doubt that he would have owned one that was make from what looks like a WW1 vintage military gun that had been reworked... He would have demanded the finest that was available.

The subject gun probably wouldn't even hit what you aimed at, since it wears a high NAVY rear sight toggle, and what appears to be a standard front sight on a standard front sight base. The bullet strike would be clearly several inches over the point of aim. Who in there right mind, (not that many of his peers or himself was in a "right" mind---but don't let me digress into politics) would present someone who was of his rank with a gun that wouldn't hit it's mark.

Since your inquiry came from a Mexican email address, I would venture MY OPINION that this gun is a parts gun that has survived it's long and hard use south of the border, and somewhere along the line, either picked up a fancy looking rear sight Navy Toggle, or was a Navy that has been subjected to cruel and unusual punishment by having it's appropriate barrel removed and replaced with 4 inch tube for easier carrying... to continue, I submit that this gun has been worked over by some decroative metalsmith south of the border to produce ONE BUTT-UGLY imitation of a presentation Luger. The grips are downright GAUDY...and appear to be plastic rather than ivory...

If you have ever seen photos of the one Luger (Kreighoff # 16999) that I know has been attributed to Goering as a presentation piece, the workmanship is superb...

This gun is a bastard child of what was once at least two standard functional Lugers that had their own history... now it is shootable junk. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" />

With all that off my chest, would like me to tell you how I REALLY feel? <img border="0" alt="[ouch]" title="" src="graemlins/c.gif" />

What a shame! <img border="0" alt="[crying]" title="" src="graemlins/crying.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="frown.gif" />

Roadkill · 06-07-2004, 02:56 PM

Interesting that the script is actually Fraktur

http://www.omniglot.com/writing/german.htm

but I think that the eagle is looking the wrong way.

http://www.germanhelmet.com/1358.htm

rk

lugerholsterrepair · 06-07-2004, 03:33 PM

Isn't Goering spelled incorectly on the inscription? Jerry Burney

John Sabato · 06-07-2004, 03:42 PM

BEST GUESS...I don't think so Jerry... the english spelling is G-O-E-R-ING the "OE" dipthong in German is accomplished with and "O" and the "umlaut" In German I believe the spelling is correct... but I would have to look it up and can't at the moment.

Vlim · 06-07-2004, 04:18 PM

Hi,

It's correct. Substituting the o/umlaut by oe is quite common.

http://www.dhm.de/lemo/html/biografien/GoeringHermann/

Ron Smith · 06-07-2004, 04:34 PM

That can't be Herman's luger. I've got Herman's Luger! Frank told me so. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
Frank, Somebodies cutting into my action here! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="frown.gif" />

Vlim · 06-07-2004, 04:41 PM

Reminds me of a Dutch artist who sold Goering a priceless Vermeer painting.

He knew it was genuine, as he painted it himself

(the artist, Van Meegeren, was arrested after WW2 for selling Dutch art to Goering. His only way to escape a collaborator's sentence was to admit to forging the painting, and many others)

Edward Tinker · 06-07-2004, 05:06 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by John Sabato:
It was a great break from the somber feeling I have had since I got the news that former President Ronald Reagan has passed away...
[/QB]<hr /></blockquote>John, I was saddened also, but not as much as I could have been. He lived a long life, not withstanding the last 10 years on Mrs Reagan, which must have been very difficult for her, but my estimation of her has grown immense the last 10 years. His legacy is strong and fairly blemish free, if he made a mistake, he came right out and admitted it, a very manful and proud thing to do.

So, John, I was saddened and watch a lot of TV this weekend, but was also proud of him as an American and it made me feel a lot better.

BTW; I always wonder how many presentation guns are discounted (this one not meant as an example) and are truely real presentation pieces

Ed

the gunman · 06-07-2004, 05:43 PM

Gee and here I thought I had uncle hermys luger .
Another dream busted

Balder · 06-07-2004, 06:15 PM

Hermann GÃ?Â¶ring was known for his pompousness and vanity; this rather frilly and, in my eyes, very ugly Luger would be right up his alley. Somebody put a great deal of work and money into this Luger; I would not rule out the possibility that it was his, although I don't find it very likely.

Balder

Ron Smith · 06-07-2004, 07:54 PM

The more I look at it. The better it looks. The engraving seems to be pretty well done. I have had two engraved pistols. Both S&Ws. One was engraved in the Phillipines, the other in Mexico. Neither one came close to the quality of this one. And if the grips are molded and not carved. They had to have copied the grip pattern to get the metal engraving to match. the Gold inlay is nearly perfect and not easy to do. The pistol was'nt intended to be functional. Someone could have had the Navy toggle installed just to inhance the lines of the pistol.To dress it up.In my opinion this "could" be legit. Herman was an art freak and an egotist he may have had it done himself. Nobody ever said that he had good taste.

Ron

Thor · 06-07-2004, 08:02 PM

I liked it, perhaps it shoots bullets engraved with Third Reich Eagles! I would think the engraving would be acorns & oak leafs in typical German format, but I really like it!
<a href="http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/Stuka.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/Stuka.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>

Russ · 06-07-2004, 08:56 PM

If that is Herman Goering's. He must of been a PIMP along with beaing A little strange.

Russ <img border="0" alt="[king]" title="" src="graemlins/r.gif" />

Johnny C. Kitchens · 06-07-2004, 09:50 PM

I invited the guy who sent me the message to come here and read the messages, after registering. He asked if we had a for sale area, and how much did I think it would be worth. I certainly don't know what to say about the value. If it is a fake, I just hope someone didn't get taken by it. On the other hand, I can imagine some expense going into all that engraving...

Roadkill · 06-07-2004, 10:02 PM

Here's another one (scroll down five pictures)

http://www.juliaauctions.com/firearm...highlights.htm

Gold-plated, engraved Walther semi-automatic pistol surrendered by Herman Goering at the time he was captured by Jewish Lt. Jerome Shapiro, along with Shapiro's U.S. Colt 45.

rk

Johnny C. Kitchens · 06-07-2004, 10:44 PM

This one certainly looks like the real thing...

I decided a thread about Hermann Goering's Luger should at least show one, or these five images of it. First time I've seen it field stripped...

saxman · 06-10-2004, 07:56 PM

Johnny; I may be a little slow here, but could you explain what you mean, and tell more about the gold Luger?

06-07-2004, 01:28 PM	#1
Johnny C. Kitchens User Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Arlington, Texas Posts: 518 Thanks: 0 Thanked 20 Times in 8 Posts	Hermann Goering's Luger??? I was contacted today, by E-Mail by a person seeking information on what he believes, and could be Hermann Goering's Luger. Here is his message to me. Yesterday I went into the net trying to get some information about a Luger Pistol and I founded a site that has many pictures of Lugers from different Collectors, and thatÃ?Â´s how I got your e-mail address. I have a friend that has a Luger that belonged to Hermann Goering, and he got the pistol from another person that sold it to him some years ago back when he had some money problems and needed to get rid of it. The thing is that person never gave my friend the register papers or some document that can proove this Luger belonged to Herman Goering and now heÃ?Â´s trying to sell it, but he needs some information about the gun. He has some serial numbers, but we donÃ?Â´t have any idea how to get information about the gun, so thatÃ?Â´s why I went to Internet expecting to find an expert that can help us telling us how to track the pistolÃ?Â´s history so he can sell it. Here are some pictures of the gun and I hope you can help us out on this ... Any information will help ... Thanks for your time, and hope to hear from you soon .. Regards, Claudio Ortega "Claudio Ortega Azcanio" <cortega@hondaplaza.com.mx> Here are the picture included with the E-Mail... What do you think??? Real??? Or a lot of work by someone??? __________________ Johnny C. Kitchens

06-07-2004, 02:11 PM	#3
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,987 Thanks: 1,067 Thanked 5,090 Times in 1,675 Posts	Hermy didn't have to buy any fancy Lugers. Krieghoff gave him two. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

06-07-2004, 02:13 PM	#4
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva"> What do you think??? Real??? Or a lot of work by someone??? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Johnny, I hope this doesn't ruffle any feathers, but I laughed so hard when I saw this that I nearly fell off my office chair. It was a great break from the somber feeling I have had since I got the news that former President Ronald Reagan has passed away... IMNSHO, this overworked DWM Luger is merely somebody's handiwork to try and make a dime. Even IF the late Herr Goering had owned several Lugers, I doubt that he would have owned one that was make from what looks like a WW1 vintage military gun that had been reworked... He would have demanded the finest that was available. The subject gun probably wouldn't even hit what you aimed at, since it wears a high NAVY rear sight toggle, and what appears to be a standard front sight on a standard front sight base. The bullet strike would be clearly several inches over the point of aim. Who in there right mind, (not that many of his peers or himself was in a "right" mind---but don't let me digress into politics) would present someone who was of his rank with a gun that wouldn't hit it's mark. Since your inquiry came from a Mexican email address, I would venture MY OPINION that this gun is a parts gun that has survived it's long and hard use south of the border, and somewhere along the line, either picked up a fancy looking rear sight Navy Toggle, or was a Navy that has been subjected to cruel and unusual punishment by having it's appropriate barrel removed and replaced with 4 inch tube for easier carrying... to continue, I submit that this gun has been worked over by some decroative metalsmith south of the border to produce ONE BUTT-UGLY imitation of a presentation Luger. The grips are downright GAUDY...and appear to be plastic rather than ivory... If you have ever seen photos of the one Luger (Kreighoff # 16999) that I know has been attributed to Goering as a presentation piece, the workmanship is superb... This gun is a bastard child of what was once at least two standard functional Lugers that had their own history... now it is shootable junk. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> With all that off my chest, would like me to tell you how I REALLY feel? <img border="0" alt="[ouch]" title="" src="graemlins/c.gif" /> What a shame! <img border="0" alt="[crying]" title="" src="graemlins/crying.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="frown.gif" /> __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

06-07-2004, 03:33 PM	#6
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,761 Thanks: 4,852 Thanked 3,101 Times in 1,427 Posts	Isn't Goering spelled incorectly on the inscription? Jerry Burney __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

06-07-2004, 03:42 PM	#7
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	BEST GUESS...I don't think so Jerry... the english spelling is G-O-E-R-ING the "OE" dipthong in German is accomplished with and "O" and the "umlaut" In German I believe the spelling is correct... but I would have to look it up and can't at the moment. __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

06-07-2004, 02:02 PM	#2
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,034 Thanks: 1,020 Thanked 3,882 Times in 1,186 Posts	I'd think Hermann could afford to buy a new gun, rather than a rebarreled navy Without a paper trail to back it up, I'm afraid this pistol has nothing more than a curiosity value.

06-07-2004, 02:56 PM	#5
Roadkill User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 1,632 Thanks: 1 Thanked 28 Times in 17 Posts	Interesting that the script is actually Fraktur http://www.omniglot.com/writing/german.htm but I think that the eagle is looking the wrong way. http://www.germanhelmet.com/1358.htm rk

06-07-2004, 04:18 PM	#8
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,034 Thanks: 1,020 Thanked 3,882 Times in 1,186 Posts	Hi, It's correct. Substituting the o/umlaut by oe is quite common. http://www.dhm.de/lemo/html/biografien/GoeringHermann/

06-07-2004, 04:34 PM	#9
Ron Smith User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 4,243 Thanks: 118 Thanked 245 Times in 150 Posts	That can't be Herman's luger. I've got Herman's Luger! Frank told me so. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> Frank, Somebodies cutting into my action here! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="frown.gif" /> __________________ I Still Need DWM side plate #49... if anyone runs across a nice one. What ~Rudyard Kipling~ said...

06-07-2004, 04:41 PM	#10
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,034 Thanks: 1,020 Thanked 3,882 Times in 1,186 Posts	Reminds me of a Dutch artist who sold Goering a priceless Vermeer painting. He knew it was genuine, as he painted it himself (the artist, Van Meegeren, was arrested after WW2 for selling Dutch art to Goering. His only way to escape a collaborator's sentence was to admit to forging the painting, and many others)

06-07-2004, 05:06 PM	#11
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,911 Thanks: 1,987 Thanked 4,502 Times in 2,077 Posts	</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by John Sabato: It was a great break from the somber feeling I have had since I got the news that former President Ronald Reagan has passed away... [/QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">John, I was saddened also, but not as much as I could have been. He lived a long life, not withstanding the last 10 years on Mrs Reagan, which must have been very difficult for her, but my estimation of her has grown immense the last 10 years. His legacy is strong and fairly blemish free, if he made a mistake, he came right out and admitted it, a very manful and proud thing to do. So, John, I was saddened and watch a lot of TV this weekend, but was also proud of him as an American and it made me feel a lot better. BTW; I always wonder how many presentation guns are discounted (this one not meant as an example) and are truely real presentation pieces Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

06-07-2004, 05:43 PM	#12
the gunman User Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Leland NC 28451 Posts: 1,017 Thanks: 1 Thanked 13 Times in 12 Posts	Gee and here I thought I had uncle hermys luger . Another dream busted

06-07-2004, 06:15 PM	#13
Balder User Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Norway Posts: 288 Thanks: 20 Thanked 34 Times in 19 Posts	Hermann GÃ?Â¶ring was known for his pompousness and vanity; this rather frilly and, in my eyes, very ugly Luger would be right up his alley. Somebody put a great deal of work and money into this Luger; I would not rule out the possibility that it was his, although I don't find it very likely. Balder

06-07-2004, 07:54 PM	#14
Ron Smith User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 4,243 Thanks: 118 Thanked 245 Times in 150 Posts	The more I look at it. The better it looks. The engraving seems to be pretty well done. I have had two engraved pistols. Both S&Ws. One was engraved in the Phillipines, the other in Mexico. Neither one came close to the quality of this one. And if the grips are molded and not carved. They had to have copied the grip pattern to get the metal engraving to match. the Gold inlay is nearly perfect and not easy to do. The pistol was'nt intended to be functional. Someone could have had the Navy toggle installed just to inhance the lines of the pistol.To dress it up.In my opinion this "could" be legit. Herman was an art freak and an egotist he may have had it done himself. Nobody ever said that he had good taste. Ron __________________ I Still Need DWM side plate #49... if anyone runs across a nice one. What ~Rudyard Kipling~ said...

06-07-2004, 08:02 PM	#15
Thor User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Rio Rancho, New Mexico Posts: 4,583 Thanks: 958 Thanked 970 Times in 276 Posts	I liked it, perhaps it shoots bullets engraved with Third Reich Eagles! I would think the engraving would be acorns & oak leafs in typical German format, but I really like it! <a href="http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/Stuka.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/Stuka.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a> __________________ Thor's Luger Clinic http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/ Ted Green (Thor Yaller Boots) 725 Western Hills Dr SE, Rio Rancho, NM 87124 915-526-8925 Email thor340@aol.com ----------------------------------- John3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

06-07-2004, 08:56 PM	#16
Russ User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Reading, PA. Posts: 628 Thanks: 2 Thanked 38 Times in 10 Posts	If that is Herman Goering's. He must of been a PIMP along with beaing A little strange. Russ <img border="0" alt="[king]" title="" src="graemlins/r.gif" /> __________________ Livin the dream!!!!!!!!!!!

06-07-2004, 09:50 PM	#17
Johnny C. Kitchens User Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Arlington, Texas Posts: 518 Thanks: 0 Thanked 20 Times in 8 Posts	I invited the guy who sent me the message to come here and read the messages, after registering. He asked if we had a for sale area, and how much did I think it would be worth. I certainly don't know what to say about the value. If it is a fake, I just hope someone didn't get taken by it. On the other hand, I can imagine some expense going into all that engraving... __________________ Johnny C. Kitchens

06-07-2004, 10:02 PM	#18
Roadkill User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 1,632 Thanks: 1 Thanked 28 Times in 17 Posts	Here's another one (scroll down five pictures) http://www.juliaauctions.com/firearm...highlights.htm Gold-plated, engraved Walther semi-automatic pistol surrendered by Herman Goering at the time he was captured by Jewish Lt. Jerome Shapiro, along with Shapiro's U.S. Colt 45. rk

06-07-2004, 10:44 PM	#19
Johnny C. Kitchens User Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Arlington, Texas Posts: 518 Thanks: 0 Thanked 20 Times in 8 Posts	This one certainly looks like the real thing... I decided a thread about Hermann Goering's Luger should at least show one, or these five images of it. First time I've seen it field stripped... __________________ Johnny C. Kitchens

06-10-2004, 07:56 PM	#20
saxman User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 301 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Johnny; I may be a little slow here, but could you explain what you mean, and tell more about the gold Luger? __________________ You can lead 'em to the water, but you can't make 'em drink.