Fraud? & Phony?

There is a steel die/hand stamp manufacturer in the state of New York that I came across this week and became very disturbed after talking to the owner. The company makes steel dies for hand stamping metal. During my conversation we talked a little about the types of stampings on various manufacturers of guns specifically lugers. I was appalled to find out this company is doing a booming business in the manufacture of hand dies for stamping proofs on lugers. They will make any stamp I want and says that currently he is doing business with an individual in the Chicago and Florida area making reproduction stamps for these individuals for luger rework. LUGER REWORK or is this LUGER lets fake the rework and call it original. I can tell you that I have not slept very well since, thinking I may have in my safe one of those originals that wasn't original until someone reworked it into an original. What's going on guys and who is doing the fraudulent work? I hope I never buy one and find out about it because I will be madder than all blazes. Has this happened to anyone and how do we protect ourselves from these thieves? Feedback guys?

Boy talk about the scum of the earth! That is BAD for die hard Luger collectors! We should all be on the lookout and share any info we find. I'm sick of getting ripped off by cheats! This kind of stuff should be illegal. If I come across any fakes I'll let the Forum know where and who.

,Brandon

[Dok]

I just got a glimps of what it's like to be an anti-gunner!!! My thought was... the guy who is doing the rework with the poney stamps is the bad guy, but then I thought... if the stamps weren't available he couldn't do his reworks!!! That's the whole gun issue in a different form... interesting problem. I would feel there is no need to manufacture these stamps, but then I'm not much different than the anti-gunners!!!


Bummer

Nice to see ya back Dok, Is your family doing Ok? I know losing a Father and a Mother can't be easy.


All the best,Brandon

[Johnny Peppers]

The sad but true fact is that this is certainly not unique to Lugers, and it is nothing new. While some wring their hands over changing out a mismatched part to a matching numbered part, out and out fakes are being churned out for the eager market. These people do not need dies to restamp existing markings, but to create totally new and rare examples. These are dies to create new chamber markings and all the other markings needed to fabricate a totally new and rare Luger from a common garden variety Luger. That is the reason many doubt the existence of the Spandau Luger. There is simply nothing to prove that it is anything but a fabrication.

Several years ago a new collector brought a super rare Luger to my friend and I to get our opinion. It was a terrible job of faking, but thirty minutes of explaining in detail everything that was wrong just resulted in the "deer in the headlights" look. He just did not have the experience to relate what we were telling him to what he was seeing. Then there was the case where we told someone that the rare Luger he was thinking about buying was not right and showed him why, and he bought it anyway.

Buying a Luger is a lot like taking a test. Do your homework before you enter the classroom. We all have the same tendency to see what we really want to see and not what we are actually looking at.

It is hard to find fault with the manufacturer, as his business is making and selling dies. If he didn't make them someone else would, and probably wouldn't be so open about telling you that he made them. It is the person that uses them to defraud someone else that is at fault.

Let's ask this stamp maker if he would let the Forum post his customer list on the Forum...


That should raise a few eyebrows...

If you were a member of NAPCA you would have known about this problem several years ago. They have what thet call a cottage alert often in there publication to let you know what fakerey is going on. The dies are also coming out of Europe and have been for years.

[Orv Reichert]

There is no law against making and selling these stamps.


There is a law against misrepresenting anything that you sell. It is called FRAUD!


There are few folks, unfortunately, who are willing to stand up and say..''HEY...THAT GUY MAKES AND SELLS FAKES!'' Until that happens, we allwill be at risk.


One guy. in Northern Florida has been cited in AUTOMAG several times. Now, I hear, his son is in the business as dad was arrested. Unfortunately, even NAPCA, on advise of their attorney, is hesitant to name

names.


Another guy in the Midwest was constantly advertising phony stuff. I hear he caught so much heat that he is out of the business of selling guns, now. [I wonder where the guns went?....anyone know?]


There appears to be no real solution at this time. I would suggest you always get a written description of the piece and keep it. Always confirm your details in writing when you send the check. always state the return policy. Always note that there is to be no 'restocking charges'. If it is sold as original,..state that it is described as ''ALL ORIGINAL PARTS AND FINISH WITH ALL MATCHING NUMBERS''


Then. later on, if you find you have been burned, you have some legal points to cite...not just the 'he said' and 'I said' stuff that we have read in this forum in the past!

Well Im new to Lugers. I have not even bought my first one yet.I started to get into collecting Lugers and P-38's about 8 yrs ago or so, but it was really the same thing then too. So far, all I have heard is BE CAREFUL,ITS NOT WORTH IT,HOPE YOU CAN AFFORD EXPENSIVE MISTAKES etc. etc..I see more people getting out of collecting than people getting into it, beacuse of all the fakes!!!! I dont know if its worth it. Thats why I was leaning towards buying a shooter grade or one of the New Interarms Mauser Lugers.It really is discouraging to us new want to be collectors that this type of thing goes on. Just to buy one Luger would be a big undertaking for me financially, I cant afford to make mistakes and take the risk. But I do know one thing for certain, the good Lord is going to take care of these people who are doing all this faking, you can rest assure yourself of that. I really feel discouraged even more now when I read stuff like this, it puts butterflys in my stomach and just makes me sick.

[Thor]

That is why I add my rework mark to Lugers I work on so down the road, if the word about the marking gets out, people will know the Lugers I work on are reworks and not minty examples. Honestly, a person that has seen a lot of original Lugers would not be fooled by one of mine, but there ARE people out there that can duplicate originals pretty darn good. It really comes down to the seller, if he misrepresents any Luger that has been "touched up" as original, he is not being honest. ~Thor~

I asked who his customers were to see if I could get this information as a prospective buyer of the customers products but he said his customers were confidential and would not give them to me. He did not know me and I could have easily been his competition falsely inquiring. He was just protecting his interests.

I have personally met the son and have spoken with the father and have purchased a luger from the son. The story behind the gun was incredible. After having the gun and having an expert among us tell me it could be a fake I sold it for what I had in it - as possibly a fake. Couldn't handle having something that quiet possibly could be an altered piece. BUT WHAT A PIECE OF ART - IT WAS A BEAUTE' Them there crooks sure are good at what they do, buyer beware - it may not be real.

[tom]

Fellow Toggle Top Afficianados,


The simple facts are that there is MUCH more demand (Dollars) than there are great Lugers (Supply). When this happens in any commodity, entrepreneurs attempt to increase supply to the market place. These entrepreneurs are only following the principles of benevolent self interest, albeit a bit of fraud may or may not be involved.


Folks, rare Lugers represent a great deal of money. Merely applying a new marking will not make a plain Jane a desirable piece to anyone but a neophyte. That is why this forum is so important.


We actually help neophytes learn what to look for.


Having said that self congratulatory statement, let me also say that caveat emptor is the best advice and following Orv's recommendation about a written warantee makes very good sense. I would ALWAYS ask for something like this from a Type 01 dealer, just as insurance. Likewise, anyone who has a "No returns" policy should probably be avoided. Something probably isn't kosher.


I would also add that anyone who is into Toggle Tops and not a NAPCA member is negligent in maintaining their knowledge base.


FWIW,


Tom

Even NAPCA publishes incorrect and inadequately researched information--e.g. an article last year on holsters. Lugers are collectibles that require a lot of knowledge to collect without being defrauded. Here in Colorado, a long-time collector is selling his collection. The rarest and highest value pieces are just now being offered. Unfortunately, many of the pieces have been "improved". For prices of up to $8000, you need to know what you are buying.

[tom]

Amen! I seldom buy a piece over $3K unless I know the gun's provenance...


Tom

[Luke]

[Marvin]

Mark,


You make some really valid points for new Luger collectors about getting "burned". One thing that new collectors should do is buy reference material (books) and read them! The next thing is to stay with the COMMON type Lugers that are plentiful and reasonably priced. These are usually not the faked ones, but may have have been reblued, so you must know what to look for there. If you stay with the lower end of the collectible Lugers; those in the 90-95% range, you should be getting an original pistol with original finish, and a decent price. They are collctible, and fun!


I have a number of Lugers, but most are the common variety. I do have a nice Artillary, a KU, a couple of Police Banners as my rarest pieces. The rest are common WWI, Weimar Era, and WWI pistols. When you start buying the high dollar pistols, and the rare pistols that are not authenticated in reference material, you can get burned quickly. In Whittington's books on pistols of the Third Reich, he states to stay with the common pistols and avoid the rare stuff unless you know them and you should be OK. Just my thoughts on the subject.


Marvin