Death's head buckle

lugerholsterrepair · 09-06-2003, 11:57 PM

Any buckle collectors out there who know if this is authentic? If it is, who was it issued to? Thanks, Jerry Burney

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...category=36046

Ron Wood · 09-07-2003, 12:19 AM

I haven't seen anything like that in any of my Imperial references. Given the style of the motto and lacking a swastika I would think this is supposed to represent an Imperial era buckle. However, I am inclined to think it is a modern fantasy piece that has been cast rather than die struck. Kinda neat looking though, isn't it?!

Sieger · 09-07-2003, 02:33 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Ron Wood:
I haven't seen anything like that in any of my Imperial references. Given the style of the motto and lacking a swastika I would think this is supposed to represent an Imperial era buckle. However, I am inclined to think it is a modern fantasy piece that has been cast rather than die struck. Kinda neat looking though, isn't it?!<hr /></blockquote>Dear Ron:

Please check the elite unit of Generalfeldmarschall August von Mackensen who served the Kaiser, and who later, while in his 90s, helped Hitler recreate the Army. His old Hussar unit wore the Deaths Head on a military Bear Skin Hat, and traditional black Prussian uniforms. I bet this is the unit in question.

The belt buckle looks very authentic, but I wish I could see the maker marks.

Sieger

John F. · 09-07-2003, 02:35 AM

Gott Mit Uns would be a motto found on German Army buckles in the WW2 era, but the Death's Head is an SS insignia; the SS motto on their buckles was Meine Ehre Heisst Treue, and they had an eagle/swastika emblem, not death's head. It is difficult to see for sure but if there is an "RZM" mark on the back of the buckle, which would be intended to signify it was approved by the Reich's agency inspecting official clothing and insignia, it is very probably a fake, of a type that didn't exist to the best of my knowledge.

(Edit: I was composing this at the time Sieger was writing his post.) I have little knowledge of WW1 insignia. I seem to recall some units used a Death's Head in WW1 (Hussar?) but I thought they might have used the earlier jawless skull, not the later Waffen SS style deaths head shown here. That would be worth checking into. If one were interested in buying this, I'd get a description of the makers marks on the back, in particular asking about an RZM mark, which has a circle around the letters built into it. If it has one -- BEWARE. Otherwise, I would run, not walk, from this one barring having specific knowledge about it. Hope helpful!
John

Ron Wood · 09-07-2003, 02:57 AM

Sieger

I have been interested in the 1st and 2nd Leib Garde Hussars for a long time. Here is an example of the busby worn by the 1st LGH from my collection and a picture of von Mackensen himself. The beltbuckle in question was not worn by this elite unit.

Hairy · 09-07-2003, 08:11 AM

I seem to recall that the phrase, "Gott Mit Uns" was also on the German belt buckles in WWI, and not just WWII.

Could it be that this buckle is one from the many semi-official military units that sprung up after the war in Germany?

Sieger · 09-07-2003, 08:48 AM

Ron:

These are really good photos.

lugerholsterrepair · 09-07-2003, 11:56 AM

Thanks gentlemen, It does look old in the photo and you are right it would be wise to check out the markings. I'm like Ron, I thought it looked really neat...Jerry Burney

colcolombo · 09-07-2003, 10:37 PM

Jerry,

Couldn't find your buckle here but there are a lot of interesting buckles pictured.

http://images.google.com/images?q=ge...&sa=N&filter=0

For the benefit of those that don't know (and I was one of those till I saw this on Tech-TV) when searching Google, select "IMAGES" instead of "WEB PAGES" and pictures with URL's will appear such as these. (No charge for the free lesson!)

OK! OK! I know a lot of you already knew this. Give me a break. Just trying to be helpful. Nobody knows EVERYTHING!

JH

Aaron · 09-08-2003, 01:57 AM

Jerry, my copy of "German Belt Buckles" by Thomas Reid shows about four different death's head buckles, but none are a real match for the one you asked about. It seems that buckles similar to this were used by the para-military group "Der Wherwolf", also known as Wehrbund der Frontsoldaten, which was founded on ll January 1923 as a resistance group against the occupation of the Ruhr by the French and English. Its founder was Fritz Kloppe, a former cavalry sergeant and Freikorps member. The group's battle cry or motto was "Wher Heil", translated as "To Defense". Their insignia was a cavalry style death's head and "W" monogram reminiscent of Wilhelm II. They were known as d"Wherwolf" and "Werwolf". On 14 July 1933 Kloppe subordinated th group to the SA. All members joined the SA on 25 August that year and the group ceased to exist. Possibly this buckle shows the transition from the earlier group into the SA, and if authentic it could be quite rare.

09-06-2003, 11:57 PM	#1
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,760 Thanks: 4,848 Thanked 3,099 Times in 1,426 Posts	Death's head buckle Any buckle collectors out there who know if this is authentic? If it is, who was it issued to? Thanks, Jerry Burney http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...category=36046 __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

09-07-2003, 12:19 AM	#2
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,986 Thanks: 1,065 Thanked 5,088 Times in 1,674 Posts	I haven't seen anything like that in any of my Imperial references. Given the style of the motto and lacking a swastika I would think this is supposed to represent an Imperial era buckle. However, I am inclined to think it is a modern fantasy piece that has been cast rather than die struck. Kinda neat looking though, isn't it?! __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

09-07-2003, 02:33 AM	#3
Sieger User Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: New York, NY Posts: 1,575 Thanks: 2,124 Thanked 400 Times in 249 Posts	</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by Ron Wood: <strong>I haven't seen anything like that in any of my Imperial references. Given the style of the motto and lacking a swastika I would think this is supposed to represent an Imperial era buckle. However, I am inclined to think it is a modern fantasy piece that has been cast rather than die struck. Kinda neat looking though, isn't it?!</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Dear Ron: Please check the elite unit of Generalfeldmarschall August von Mackensen who served the Kaiser, and who later, while in his 90s, helped Hitler recreate the Army. His old Hussar unit wore the Deaths Head on a military Bear Skin Hat, and traditional black Prussian uniforms. I bet this is the unit in question. The belt buckle looks very authentic, but I wish I could see the maker marks. Sieger

09-07-2003, 02:35 AM	#4
John F. User Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 37 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Gott Mit Uns would be a motto found on German Army buckles in the WW2 era, but the Death's Head is an SS insignia; the SS motto on their buckles was Meine Ehre Heisst Treue, and they had an eagle/swastika emblem, not death's head. It is difficult to see for sure but if there is an "RZM" mark on the back of the buckle, which would be intended to signify it was approved by the Reich's agency inspecting official clothing and insignia, it is very probably a fake, of a type that didn't exist to the best of my knowledge. (Edit: I was composing this at the time Sieger was writing his post.) I have little knowledge of WW1 insignia. I seem to recall some units used a Death's Head in WW1 (Hussar?) but I thought they might have used the earlier jawless skull, not the later Waffen SS style deaths head shown here. That would be worth checking into. If one were interested in buying this, I'd get a description of the makers marks on the back, in particular asking about an RZM mark, which has a circle around the letters built into it. If it has one -- BEWARE. Otherwise, I would run, not walk, from this one barring having specific knowledge about it. Hope helpful! John __________________ John

09-07-2003, 02:57 AM	#5
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,986 Thanks: 1,065 Thanked 5,088 Times in 1,674 Posts	Sieger I have been interested in the 1st and 2nd Leib Garde Hussars for a long time. Here is an example of the busby worn by the 1st LGH from my collection and a picture of von Mackensen himself. The beltbuckle in question was not worn by this elite unit. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

09-07-2003, 08:11 AM	#6
Hairy User Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Hudson, FL Posts: 120 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I seem to recall that the phrase, "Gott Mit Uns" was also on the German belt buckles in WWI, and not just WWII. Could it be that this buckle is one from the many semi-official military units that sprung up after the war in Germany?

09-07-2003, 08:48 AM	#7
Sieger User Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: New York, NY Posts: 1,575 Thanks: 2,124 Thanked 400 Times in 249 Posts	Ron: These are really good photos.

09-07-2003, 11:56 AM	#8
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,760 Thanks: 4,848 Thanked 3,099 Times in 1,426 Posts	Thanks gentlemen, It does look old in the photo and you are right it would be wise to check out the markings. I'm like Ron, I thought it looked really neat...Jerry Burney __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

09-07-2003, 10:37 PM	#9
colcolombo User Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Kentucky Posts: 75 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Jerry, Couldn't find your buckle here but there are a lot of interesting buckles pictured. http://images.google.com/images?q=ge...&sa=N&filter=0 For the benefit of those that don't know (and I was one of those till I saw this on Tech-TV) when searching Google, select "IMAGES" instead of "WEB PAGES" and pictures with URL's will appear such as these. (No charge for the free lesson!) OK! OK! I know a lot of you already knew this. Give me a break. Just trying to be helpful. Nobody knows EVERYTHING! JH

09-08-2003, 01:57 AM	#10
Aaron Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Vista, CA Posts: 1,008 Thanks: 0 Thanked 9 Times in 9 Posts	Jerry, my copy of "German Belt Buckles" by Thomas Reid shows about four different death's head buckles, but none are a real match for the one you asked about. It seems that buckles similar to this were used by the para-military group "Der Wherwolf", also known as Wehrbund der Frontsoldaten, which was founded on ll January 1923 as a resistance group against the occupation of the Ruhr by the French and English. Its founder was Fritz Kloppe, a former cavalry sergeant and Freikorps member. The group's battle cry or motto was "Wher Heil", translated as "To Defense". Their insignia was a cavalry style death's head and "W" monogram reminiscent of Wilhelm II. They were known as d"Wherwolf" and "Werwolf". On 14 July 1933 Kloppe subordinated th group to the SA. All members joined the SA on 25 August that year and the group ceased to exist. Possibly this buckle shows the transition from the earlier group into the SA, and if authentic it could be quite rare.