PPU 7.62 Tokarev Cartridges Disassembled

sheepherder · 01-28-2012, 11:16 PM

I got a box of 7.62 Tokarev in from Midway; I don't plan to shoot it as is, but disassemble it, reload it, and use it in my 7.63 Mauser M30...

So I used my RCBS kinetic bullet puller to pull the bullets. I saved the powder, after weighing 11 rounds of it. Due to static friction in the cases and the puller, the weights shown in the pic are not exact. They are good enough for me to get an idea of how much PPU put in each cartridge. 9 grains seems to be the average. The powder itself seems to be 'cut round flakes'...or maybe 'flattened ball'...

The cases are headstamped PPU over 7,62 TT.

Bullets are 86gr FMJ with an open base (lead showing) and measure .308".

I've never heard of PPU, but the box says "Made in Serbia"...Edit: OK, it is Prvi Partizan ammo...

I plan on shooting the cases & bullets but I'm undecided on the powder...I might try 5 grains of it just to see how it performs...

I have sufficient 7.65 Luger loaded cartridges, but re-forming these PPU Tokarev cases to 7.65 Luger would be quite simple...

I might save the 86gr bullets for my Luger reloads, and use drilled out 110gr 30 carbine bullets for my Mauser...

Anybody have any thoughts on re-using the PPU powder (reduced loads)???

Edit: Someone had mentioned (in this forum or maybe another) re-barreling a Colt automatic in 38 Super to the 7.62 Tokarev/7.63 Mauser cartridge...I hadn't thought of that...The Tokarev/Mauser cartridge is only .080" longer than the 38 Super...Hmmmmm...

nukem556 · 01-29-2012, 11:45 AM

Gee, Rich, thats a lotta work considering PPU also sells loads in .30 Mauser!

sheepherder · 01-29-2012, 01:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nukem556

Gee, Rich, thats a lotta work considering PPU also sells loads in .30 Mauser!

Midway shows it in stock, too...But then what would I post about???

(I would still pull the bullets & change powders & charges)...

Midway shows the 30 Mauser 85gr FMJ Prvi Muzzle Velocity @ 1509 fps...Lyman 45th Edition Reloading Handbook shows 30 Mauser "Factory Duplication Load" (4.8gr Bullseye) w/85gr FMJ @ 1174fps...that's a big jump...

rhuff · 01-29-2012, 05:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by postino

Midway shows it in stock, too...But then what would I post about???

Midway shows the 30 Mauser 85gr FMJ Prvi Muzzle Velocity @ 1509 fps...Lyman 45th Edition Reloading Handbook shows 30 Mauser "Factory Duplication Load" (4.8gr Bullseye) w/85gr FMJ @ 1174fps...that's a big jump...

I would say that that is a HUGE difference in fps!!! If it were me, I would likely start out with 4.4-4.5gr of Bullseye, and see how that goes. I have no knowledge of PPU powder as to whether it is fast-slow burner. I would test on the safe side for me, and my pistol.

nukem556 · 01-30-2012, 07:56 AM

Those specs for the PPU .30 Mauser seem way over the top....I've fired it thru my Broom and it's actually mild shooting....I've got some Bulgarian Tokarev that I chrono'ed doing 1560fps out of my CZ52 that seems WAY hotter. I think the Lyman load is very conservative.....over the years I've always read that original .30 Mauser ran between 1300-1400 fps

saab-bob · 01-30-2012, 03:48 PM

Rich
The Prvi 30 Mauser works really good in my C96.
Long ago I did what you are doing,only I disassembled some old 50's Tokarev ammo.
At the time there was alot of this cheap military surplus ammo around. You had to be careful though. Some was for the pistols and some was for the Russian PPSH 41 submachine gun . If you fired the Sub gun ammo in your C96,it would blow apart! Trust me on this one!
These where the days before the Prvi and the Fiocchi was available.
That ammo was very hard to pull apart. It had been heavily case crimped and they used Berdan primers,so it was corrosive.
The powder was greenish flakes.
The idea was same as yours, to reload with a lighter (and better)powder charge.Thank goodness at about this time,Starline came out with 30 Mauser casings with standard primers. So I loaded a few Toke bullets in those,it worked great.
I gave the rest of the Tokerev ammo to a brave soul for his TT pistol.

Bob

Freischütz · 02-02-2012, 07:06 PM

Thirty or so years ago I bought 3000 rounds of surplus Czech 7.62 ammo. For use in a C96 I broke the ammo down and reloaded it with Unique. I weighed 50 original charges and found they ranged between 9.8 and 10.2 gr. Headstamp dates were 10/51 to 1/53.

Since I'm thrifty I put the surplus powder in a mixing bowel and “blended” it with a wooden spoon and my hands. Then I started loading it in the 9 mm Par. I used 115 gr Win jacketed bullets, Federal cases, and CCI primers. Overall length was 29 mm. I shot the reloads in a H&K P7.

Here are four selected results with the format - charge in gr/velocity fps/standard deviation fps:
7.0/1065/26
7.5/1109/21
8.0/1198/25
8.5/1261/27

glock30 · 05-13-2012, 08:52 PM

This is top of the line stuff, Almost like S&B, this factory load is 1,700 FPS and like 570 in energy. Same as the Wolf Gold loading. These people need to make .30 Luger, they make 8mm Kurz.

GySgt1811 · 05-13-2012, 09:45 PM

postino,

I followed your explanation and the attendant pictures. Well done! But just one question...you didn't explain how you used the router table.

Regards,

John

jonnyc · 05-13-2012, 11:07 PM

I keep hearing about hot Tokarev SMG ammo, but in-fact there is no such thing. All 7.62x25 Tokarev ammo was produced for both pistol and SMG use. I have a huge file of Tokarev lore, manuals out the wazoo, over 100 boxes/labels, and well over 1000 different Tokarev rounds in my collection. In nothing is there any marking or reference to any Tokarev ammo made for SMG-use only. Many mention pistol, or even pistol and SMG, but not a word about SMG only. It just does not exist. Yes, some Czech ammo was loaded hotter, but as its label states, it is pistol ammo, and was intended for both SMGs and the CZ52 pistol.
Back to the original theme....with a bit of digging, you will find that some pre-war European loadings of 7.63 Mauser were actually hotter than some loadings of 7.62 Tokarev. Try a chrono test of some S&B 7.63 Mauser ammo and some of their loadings in 7.62, I think you might be surprised. Oh, also try some of the S&B-made Winchester ammo. I believe that many of the problems associated with C96 Mauser pistols and "hot Tokarev SMG ammo" were in-fact caused by people shooting old, crappy Mauser pistols in very poor condition. Any warmish ammo, 7.62 or 7.63, would have caused the same damage.

alvin · 05-14-2012, 01:27 AM

Has anyone tried WWII German made 7,63 cartridge? Or having a box of it? Heard such a thing, and people thought quite amount of Mauser C96 were issued in German troops during WWII because the cartridge was steel cased and the volume is supposed to be big.. But I have never seen a box of it...

saab-bob · 05-14-2012, 03:58 PM

Jonnyc
Thanks for the info on the Tok ammo.

Back in the day, when I was still messing with that surplus Tok ammo,I seem to remember noticing different finishes. Most of it was a dull brass colored case with a dull copper colored bullet. There was also some that had a copper colored wash on then.They where brighter and all copper colored. At the time I was told this was the SMG ammo. Have you heard or seen this ammo?

Bob

jonnyc · 05-15-2012, 06:24 AM

There are Russian copper-washed steel cases from 1942, but they started making all their Tokarev ammo in CWS from about 1952 onwards. All Chinese Tokarev has been CWS since 1965. No loading significance at all to case material. The East Germans and Poles also used lacquered steel cases.

01-28-2012, 11:16 PM	#1
sheepherder Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: ...on the 'ol Erie Canal... Posts: 8,181 Thanks: 1,398 Thanked 4,438 Times in 2,327 Posts	PPU 7.62 Tokarev Cartridges Disassembled I got a box of 7.62 Tokarev in from Midway; I don't plan to shoot it as is, but disassemble it, reload it, and use it in my 7.63 Mauser M30... So I used my RCBS kinetic bullet puller to pull the bullets. I saved the powder, after weighing 11 rounds of it. Due to static friction in the cases and the puller, the weights shown in the pic are not exact. They are good enough for me to get an idea of how much PPU put in each cartridge. 9 grains seems to be the average. The powder itself seems to be 'cut round flakes'...or maybe 'flattened ball'... The cases are headstamped PPU over 7,62 TT. Bullets are 86gr FMJ with an open base (lead showing) and measure .308". I've never heard of PPU, but the box says "Made in Serbia"...Edit: OK, it is Prvi Partizan ammo... I plan on shooting the cases & bullets but I'm undecided on the powder...I might try 5 grains of it just to see how it performs... I have sufficient 7.65 Luger loaded cartridges, but re-forming these PPU Tokarev cases to 7.65 Luger would be quite simple... I might save the 86gr bullets for my Luger reloads, and use drilled out 110gr 30 carbine bullets for my Mauser... Anybody have any thoughts on re-using the PPU powder (reduced loads)??? Edit: Someone had mentioned (in this forum or maybe another) re-barreling a Colt automatic in 38 Super to the 7.62 Tokarev/7.63 Mauser cartridge...I hadn't thought of that...The Tokarev/Mauser cartridge is only .080" longer than the 38 Super...Hmmmmm... Attached Thumbnails __________________ I like my coffee the way I like my women... ...Cold and bitter...

01-30-2012, 03:48 PM	#6
saab-bob User Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: So Cal Posts: 459 Thanks: 774 Thanked 143 Times in 87 Posts	Rich The Prvi 30 Mauser works really good in my C96. Long ago I did what you are doing,only I disassembled some old 50's Tokarev ammo. At the time there was alot of this cheap military surplus ammo around. You had to be careful though. Some was for the pistols and some was for the Russian PPSH 41 submachine gun . If you fired the Sub gun ammo in your C96,it would blow apart! Trust me on this one! These where the days before the Prvi and the Fiocchi was available. That ammo was very hard to pull apart. It had been heavily case crimped and they used Berdan primers,so it was corrosive. The powder was greenish flakes. The idea was same as yours, to reload with a lighter (and better)powder charge.Thank goodness at about this time,Starline came out with 30 Mauser casings with standard primers. So I loaded a few Toke bullets in those,it worked great. I gave the rest of the Tokerev ammo to a brave soul for his TT pistol. Bob __________________ "I think,therefore I own guns"

05-14-2012, 03:58 PM	#12
saab-bob User Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: So Cal Posts: 459 Thanks: 774 Thanked 143 Times in 87 Posts	Jonnyc Thanks for the info on the Tok ammo. Back in the day, when I was still messing with that surplus Tok ammo,I seem to remember noticing different finishes. Most of it was a dull brass colored case with a dull copper colored bullet. There was also some that had a copper colored wash on then.They where brighter and all copper colored. At the time I was told this was the SMG ammo. Have you heard or seen this ammo? Bob __________________ "I think,therefore I own guns"

01-29-2012, 11:45 AM	#2
nukem556 User Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Irmo, SC Posts: 625 Thanks: 35 Thanked 168 Times in 107 Posts	Gee, Rich, thats a lotta work considering PPU also sells loads in .30 Mauser!

01-30-2012, 07:56 AM	#5
nukem556 User Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Irmo, SC Posts: 625 Thanks: 35 Thanked 168 Times in 107 Posts	Those specs for the PPU .30 Mauser seem way over the top....I've fired it thru my Broom and it's actually mild shooting....I've got some Bulgarian Tokarev that I chrono'ed doing 1560fps out of my CZ52 that seems WAY hotter. I think the Lyman load is very conservative.....over the years I've always read that original .30 Mauser ran between 1300-1400 fps

02-02-2012, 07:06 PM	#7
Freischütz User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Eastern Washington Posts: 125 Thanks: 9 Thanked 26 Times in 19 Posts	Thirty or so years ago I bought 3000 rounds of surplus Czech 7.62 ammo. For use in a C96 I broke the ammo down and reloaded it with Unique. I weighed 50 original charges and found they ranged between 9.8 and 10.2 gr. Headstamp dates were 10/51 to 1/53. Since I'm thrifty I put the surplus powder in a mixing bowel and “blended” it with a wooden spoon and my hands. Then I started loading it in the 9 mm Par. I used 115 gr Win jacketed bullets, Federal cases, and CCI primers. Overall length was 29 mm. I shot the reloads in a H&K P7. Here are four selected results with the format - charge in gr/velocity fps/standard deviation fps: 7.0/1065/26 7.5/1109/21 8.0/1198/25 8.5/1261/27

05-13-2012, 08:52 PM	#8
glock30 User Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Obama LAND Posts: 206 Thanks: 18 Thanked 17 Times in 14 Posts	This is top of the line stuff, Almost like S&B, this factory load is 1,700 FPS and like 570 in energy. Same as the Wolf Gold loading. These people need to make .30 Luger, they make 8mm Kurz.

05-13-2012, 09:45 PM	#9
GySgt1811 Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Southern Indiana Posts: 237 Thanks: 1,238 Thanked 126 Times in 84 Posts	postino, I followed your explanation and the attendant pictures. Well done! But just one question...you didn't explain how you used the router table. Regards, John

05-13-2012, 11:07 PM	#10
jonnyc User Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 425 Thanks: 2 Thanked 46 Times in 34 Posts	I keep hearing about hot Tokarev SMG ammo, but in-fact there is no such thing. All 7.62x25 Tokarev ammo was produced for both pistol and SMG use. I have a huge file of Tokarev lore, manuals out the wazoo, over 100 boxes/labels, and well over 1000 different Tokarev rounds in my collection. In nothing is there any marking or reference to any Tokarev ammo made for SMG-use only. Many mention pistol, or even pistol and SMG, but not a word about SMG only. It just does not exist. Yes, some Czech ammo was loaded hotter, but as its label states, it is pistol ammo, and was intended for both SMGs and the CZ52 pistol. Back to the original theme....with a bit of digging, you will find that some pre-war European loadings of 7.63 Mauser were actually hotter than some loadings of 7.62 Tokarev. Try a chrono test of some S&B 7.63 Mauser ammo and some of their loadings in 7.62, I think you might be surprised. Oh, also try some of the S&B-made Winchester ammo. I believe that many of the problems associated with C96 Mauser pistols and "hot Tokarev SMG ammo" were in-fact caused by people shooting old, crappy Mauser pistols in very poor condition. Any warmish ammo, 7.62 or 7.63, would have caused the same damage.

05-14-2012, 01:27 AM	#11
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	Has anyone tried WWII German made 7,63 cartridge? Or having a box of it? Heard such a thing, and people thought quite amount of Mauser C96 were issued in German troops during WWII because the cartridge was steel cased and the volume is supposed to be big.. But I have never seen a box of it...

05-15-2012, 06:24 AM	#13
jonnyc User Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 425 Thanks: 2 Thanked 46 Times in 34 Posts	There are Russian copper-washed steel cases from 1942, but they started making all their Tokarev ammo in CWS from about 1952 onwards. All Chinese Tokarev has been CWS since 1965. No loading significance at all to case material. The East Germans and Poles also used lacquered steel cases.